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Thread: Ruth Bader Ginsberg predicts another Dem in the White House. Do you Agree?

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    Re: Ruth Bader Ginsberg predicts another Dem in the White House. Do you Agree?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Chuckles View Post
    Because the crazy elements of the GOP turns off both the unaffiliated elements of the electorate and the more moderate republicans
    And those crazy elements as you call it aren't going to come out and vote for a Romney or a McCain that is basically just a democrat in denial.

    Times have changed and those people the party was pretending to represent have put out candidates that actually represent them and I highly doubt you will pull them back under the illusion moderate republicans represent them anytime soon. Without those crazy elements as you call it the majority of the moderates will vote democrat and you will lose.

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    Re: Ruth Bader Ginsberg predicts another Dem in the White House. Do you Agree?

    Quote Originally Posted by Morality Games View Post
    ... as far as welfare programs go, mandatory health insurance isn't 1/100 of what Social Security or Medicare are. It exists for the same reason and under the same logic car insurance does, because uninsured persons pose a prohibitively expensive risk to the public good.

    As a solution to the 20% of Americans with no coverage and skyrocketing premiums, it is centrism at its most bland and uncontroversial. The only reason it became controversial was because Republicans needed a new program to be their whipping boy because it became increasingly obvious their welfare dependent constituents were reacting badly to their posturing on Social Security and Medicare.
    I would think it would be pretty easy to attack forced commerce be that car insurance or health insurance. It's a bit depressing that so many people care so little for their own liberty that they don't respond much at all when they lose it. Then again, most people don't have a problem using their neighbor for their own personal gain. Hell, just look at Social Security and Medicare for proof of that.

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    Re: Ruth Bader Ginsberg predicts another Dem in the White House. Do you Agree?

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    I would think it would be pretty easy to attack forced commerce be that car insurance or health insurance. It's a bit depressing that so many people care so little for their own liberty that they don't respond much at all when they lose it. Then again, most people don't have a problem using their neighbor for their own personal gain. Hell, just look at Social Security and Medicare for proof of that.
    Most parents would give up any number of personal freedoms to save their children. So long as that remains the case, liberty will always be a lower priority concern to opportunities and economic security in this country, and every other civilization that has ever existed. At least in the United States it is a second-tier concern, unlike China where it is much lower.

    Liberty is a young man's cause. That's why young men die for it while old men make decisions from behind desks.

    Anyway, the problem is that it is "not" easy. Liberty was easier to justify when the United States was a frontier society because most families and communities weren't that interdependent, so nobody had much claim on anyone else's resources or loyalty. Our comparatively high performance society makes many demands on the population as a whole, and if a significant margin fails (like if young people fail to supply Social Security with additional funds) then the entire organism begins to decline.
    Last edited by Morality Games; 10-10-13 at 01:14 AM.
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    Re: Ruth Bader Ginsberg predicts another Dem in the White House. Do you Agree?

    Quote Originally Posted by Morality Games View Post
    Most parents would give up any number of personal freedoms to save their children. So long as that remains the case, liberty will always be a lower priority concern to opportunities and economic security in this country, and every other civilization that has ever existed. At least in the United States it is a second-tier concern, unlike China where it is much lower.

    Liberty is a young man's cause. That's why young men die for it while old men make decisions from behind desks.

    Anyway, the problem is that it is "not" easy. Liberty was easier to justify when the United States was a frontier society because most families and communities weren't that interdependent, so nobody had much claim on anyone else's resources or loyalty. Our comparatively high performance society makes many demands on the population as a whole, and if a significant margin fails (like if young people fail to supply Social Security with additional funds) then the entire organism begins to decline.
    I'm not willing to give up my liberty for the community and to perfectly blunt I find the demand on me to do so by the community unsettling and unjustified. You don't demand that you fellow citizens give up their rights because you might benefit from it. That is an unacceptable demand that no one should willingly accept. It honestly doesn't matter to me when talking about government that people need certain things in their life be that money when they retire, an education, healthcare, a living wage, housing, food, clothing, any of it. To demand someone to provide for peoples needs is an unacceptable demand to put on someone else. I will help people that i see fit to help in ways that I see fit to help them or I will do nothing about it and let it be how it is. It is only my concern when I make it my concern and no one gets to tell me otherwise. It doesn't matter to me what people think. Liberty is a human right and I will not accept it's violation, ever.

    I was raised to help people, but I was not raised to take from people what is not mine nor was I raised to order people around to do my bidding and ignore their protest. That is what government is doing with these welfare programs, wage controls(minimum wage), public accommodation laws, subsidies, mandates, etc and I have no stomach for it. It flat out pisses me off when I see my money going to Social Security and I had no say in it. Apparently, I'm supposed to be grateful for the government for looking out for me, but I never asked them to look out for me. I can take care of myself and I sure as hell don't need the government taking my income to pay the elderly against my will.

    What really gets to me most of all is that the supporters of these policies tells me that I'm immoral. I'm the guy that is telling them to leave people alone and deal with people on a voluntary level, while they are the party ordering people into commerce, telling business owners they must accept everyone on their property and hire people not on the owners terms, but on their terms, and most importantly for the topic, forcing everyone into charity, and yet somehow I'm the guy that is immoral.
    Last edited by Henrin; 10-10-13 at 02:00 AM.

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    Re: Ruth Bader Ginsberg predicts another Dem in the White House. Do you Agree?

    The nice thing about liberty is that those who think it's a low priority don't really have a choice. People will live how they want and do what they want, and as long as they don't harm others directly, the state doesn't have enough resources to come down on them hard. All the liberty haters really have is moral blackmail, ineffective if you know they are full of crap.

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    Re: Ruth Bader Ginsberg predicts another Dem in the White House. Do you Agree?

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    And those crazy elements as you call it aren't going to come out and vote for a Romney or a McCain that is basically just a democrat in denial.
    While some will stay home, it seems many react on the lesser of two evils fallacy and vote simply to make sure the other guy doesn't get into office. Though, admittedly, I never looked up the numbers for the 2012 potus election

    Times have changed and those people the party was pretending to represent have put out candidates that actually represent them and I highly doubt you will pull them back under the illusion moderate republicans represent them anytime soon. Without those crazy elements as you call it the majority of the moderates will vote democrat and you will lose.
    I'm not big on party politics, tbh

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    Re: Ruth Bader Ginsberg predicts another Dem in the White House. Do you Agree?

    I personally can't stand Hillary Clinton, and I won't vote for her, but I think that the odds are very high that she'll be the next President. It's a long time out, plenty of time either for her to screw up, or for the Republicans to get something right -- but neither of those happen very often, so I don't expect them to happen before the next election.
    "All that stuff I was taught about evolution, embryology, Big Bang theory, all that is lies straight from the pit of hell [the bible] teaches us how to run all our public policy and everything in society." Rep. Paul Broun (R)

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    Re: Ruth Bader Ginsberg predicts another Dem in the White House. Do you Agree?

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    I'm not willing to give up my liberty for the community and to perfectly blunt I find the demand on me to do so by the community unsettling and unjustified. You don't demand that you fellow citizens give up their rights because you might benefit from it. That is an unacceptable demand that no one should willingly accept. It honestly doesn't matter to me when talking about government that people need certain things in their life be that money when they retire, an education, healthcare, a living wage, housing, food, clothing, any of it. To demand someone to provide for peoples needs is an unacceptable demand to put on someone else. I will help people that i see fit to help in ways that I see fit to help them or I will do nothing about it and let it be how it is. It is only my concern when I make it my concern and no one gets to tell me otherwise. It doesn't matter to me what people think. Liberty is a human right and I will not accept it's violation, ever.

    I was raised to help people, but I was not raised to take from people what is not mine nor was I raised to order people around to do my bidding and ignore their protest. That is what government is doing with these welfare programs, wage controls(minimum wage), public accommodation laws, subsidies, mandates, etc and I have no stomach for it. It flat out pisses me off when I see my money going to Social Security and I had no say in it. Apparently, I'm supposed to be grateful for the government for looking out for me, but I never asked them to look out for me. I can take care of myself and I sure as hell don't need the government taking my income to pay the elderly against my will.

    What really gets to me most of all is that the supporters of these policies tells me that I'm immoral. I'm the guy that is telling them to leave people alone and deal with people on a voluntary level, while they are the party ordering people into commerce, telling business owners they must accept everyone on their property and hire people not on the owners terms, but on their terms, and most importantly for the topic, forcing everyone into charity, and yet somehow I'm the guy that is immoral.
    The issue is not that straightforward. The left wants less liberty because they need the government to protect people from abusive corporate power structures who themselves infest the government with special interests that engineer the economy against the working man, and the right colludes with those power structures to overcome the left and achieve their goal -- which also constitutes an imposition on liberty. At the same time, the left has to work with those abusive power structures because attacking them head on would cause society to plummet, and the right has to work with the left because taking away social safety nets and regulations would similarly cause society to plummet.

    There is no single group of people weighing liberty against safety or anything of that nature, there are many groups of people acting in loose coalitions and alliances and rivalries trying to weigh and measure all concerns via political, legal, and economic mechanisms that are prone to dysfunction.
    If you notice something good in yourself, give credit to God, not to yourself, but be certain the evil you commit is always your own and yours to acknowledge.

    St. Benedict

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    Re: Ruth Bader Ginsberg predicts another Dem in the White House. Do you Agree?

    But I think we should all be able to agree that the burden of proof lies on those who would restrict.

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    Re: Ruth Bader Ginsberg predicts another Dem in the White House. Do you Agree?

    Quote Originally Posted by Morality Games View Post
    The issue is not that straightforward. The left wants less liberty because they need the government to protect people from abusive corporate power structures who themselves infest the government with special interests that engineer the economy against the working man, and the right colludes with those power structures to overcome the left and achieve their goal -- which also constitutes an imposition on liberty.
    ???? Abusive corporate power structures? What do you mean by that?

    At the same time, the left has to work with those abusive power structures because attacking them head on would cause society to plummet, and the right has to work with the left because taking away social safety nets and regulations would similarly cause society to plummet.
    Why would taking away regulations cause society to plummet? Most of them are more about controlling industry than punishing any sort of harms that occur. I don't think eliminating control would cause society to plummet. Do we really need the government controlling industry or do just need human rights protected? Just a thought.

    Safety nets are only positive in that they boost economic activity, but at the cost of wages and increased disparity. Sure people can still think they are positive because they provide someone with some resource, but people seemingly forget who else it effects by doing so. Then again, I doubt they care.

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