View Poll Results: How Bad Could it Be?

Voters
33. You may not vote on this poll
  • Dems cave in again, allowing the debt to be used as a political tool

    5 15.15%
  • Landslide election for one side in 2014

    8 24.24%
  • Republican rebellion forces Boehner down

    4 12.12%
  • House impeaches Obama

    4 12.12%
  • Economic slump

    9 27.27%
  • Recession

    12 36.36%
  • Depression

    18 54.55%
  • Civil War

    1 3.03%
  • World War

    0 0%
  • End of USA as we know it

    1 3.03%
Multiple Choice Poll.
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Thread: How Bad Could it Be? (Shutdown/Debt Limit)

  1. #71
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    Re: How Bad Could it Be? (Shutdown/Debt Limit)

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    You didn't say anything which counters it.
    I didn't say anything. But my post certainly contains a fairly compelling list of reasons.

    I've taken the liberty of reviewing your last few posts:
    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw
    No, my analogy is correct. The bill can be paid. Not paying it is a choice.
    No, raising your credit card limit so that you can charge more and take on more debt is exactly akin to raising the debt limit.
    Your entire argument is "I'm right because of this analogy" and "my analogy is right because I'm right."

    Bravo.

  2. #72
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    Re: How Bad Could it Be? (Shutdown/Debt Limit)

    Quote Originally Posted by Mithros View Post
    I didn't say anything. But my post certainly contains a fairly compelling list of reasons.
    Your post contained nothing which contradicted what I said.


    Your entire argument is "I'm right because of this analogy" and "my analogy is right because I'm right."
    That is not my argument.
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

  3. #73
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    Re: How Bad Could it Be? (Shutdown/Debt Limit)

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    No, raising your credit card limit so that you can charge more and take on more debt is exactly akin to raising the debt limit.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mithros View Post
    That's a common misconception held by 60% of the public. It's also extremely dangerous.

    Money is spent during appropriations. Appropriations create legal obligations. This is akin to the agreement created between you and your credit card company when you buy something or you and your mortgage company when you buy a house. In both cases, you have made a legally binding agreement to pay a certain amount at a later date.

    The Government also has these obligations. To meet these obligations uses tax dollars, and funds the rest by selling treasury bills. The debt limit is essentially a limit of the number of TBills the treasury can sell. TBills work by saying I'll give the government this much money now, and the US Government will give me more money at some later date. So some portion of TBills are continually coming due at any point in time. If the US were to run out of money for any reason, it would make it more difficult to sell TBills. Because the rates are so low now, even a small rate increase would result in a huge increase in the cost to finance our debt. So instead of spending 400B a year in debt finances, we'd have to spend something like 800 or a trillion to finance our debt. This makes balancing the budget IMPOSSIBLE.

    Greece didn't run into trouble because they had too much debt. They ran into trouble because they couldn't pay for the debt that they had. This created a downward spiral of increased debt cost, and reduced ability to pay it.

    It's like a homeowner with an ARM. They're fine when the interest rate is low, but when it blows up they can't pay, even though they owe less now than what they owed when they could pay.
    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    You didn't say anything which counters it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mithros View Post
    I didn't say anything. But my post certainly contains a fairly compelling list of reasons. Your entire argument is "I'm right because of this analogy" and "my analogy is right because I'm right."
    Bravo.
    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    Your post contained nothing which contradicted what I said.
    That is not my argument.
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    Re: How Bad Could it Be? (Shutdown/Debt Limit)

    Quote Originally Posted by Mithros View Post
    Repeating all of our posts still does not mean what you said contradicted me. All you said is that if we miss a payment, interest rates go up. It has nothing to do with what I said.
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

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    Re: How Bad Could it Be? (Shutdown/Debt Limit)

    You know what is going to happen to 99% of the country?
    Nothing.

  6. #76
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    Re: How Bad Could it Be? (Shutdown/Debt Limit)

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    Repeating all of our posts still does not mean what you said contradicted me. All you said is that if we miss a payment, interest rates go up. It has nothing to do with what I said.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mithros View Post
    Money is spent during appropriations. Appropriations create legal obligations. This is akin to the agreement created between you and your credit card company when you buy something or you and your mortgage company when you buy a house. In both cases, you have made a legally binding agreement to pay a certain amount at a later date.
    Sorry, I'll explain this a little more in detail because it is a little tricky.

    Congress passes a budget. That budget appropriates money for different things. For example, the budget may appropriate money for a new aircraft carrier.

    Now you can't just go to Walmart and buy a new carrier. Instead the government signs contracts with a number of different contractors. They government agrees to pay them a certain amount at certain times in exchange for certain deliverables. Then the contractors get to work and start building the carrier.

    The government is legally obligated to make those payments as soon as the contract is signed. So the more accurate analogy is that passing a budget is like buying a house, raising the debt ceiling is like paying the mortgage, and passing next years budget is like buying a new house.

    If you're concerned about debt and government spending (as we all should be), then the time to be concerned about it is when we pass the next budget. Not paying for things we've already bought will only make them MORE expensive. The fastest way to make the debt explode is to default by not raising the debt ceiling.

  7. #77
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    Re: How Bad Could it Be? (Shutdown/Debt Limit)

    Quote Originally Posted by Mithros View Post
    Sorry, I'll explain this a little more in detail because it is a little tricky.

    Congress passes a budget. That budget appropriates money for different things. For example, the budget may appropriate money for a new aircraft carrier.

    Now you can't just go to Walmart and buy a new carrier. Instead the government signs contracts with a number of different contractors. They government agrees to pay them a certain amount at certain times in exchange for certain deliverables. Then the contractors get to work and start building the carrier.

    The government is legally obligated to make those payments as soon as the contract is signed. So the more accurate analogy is that passing a budget is like buying a house, raising the debt ceiling is like paying the mortgage, and passing next years budget is like buying a new house.

    If you're concerned about debt and government spending (as we all should be), then the time to be concerned about it is when we pass the next budget. Not paying for things we've already bought will only make them MORE expensive. The fastest way to make the debt explode is to default by not raising the debt ceiling.
    No, raising the debt ceiling is exactly like raising your credit limit so that you can continue to charge those things beyond your means -- some of which you've committed yourself to.

    You still have not said a single thing which contradicts this. Nothing you've said could not be solved by increased non-debt revenue, so no, raising the debt ceiling is not like paying your mortgage. Raising the debt ceiling is like raising your credit limit so you can charge your mortgage. By your own description, this is so.
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

  8. #78
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    Re: How Bad Could it Be? (Shutdown/Debt Limit)

    Quote Originally Posted by Carjosse View Post
    We do it is outlined by the Ministry of Finance. 10 cents of our federal tax dollars go to healthcare transfer payments.
    10% of your federal tax dollars as a whole has nothing to do with the percentage of a taxpayer making in excess of 135k per year. Damn, what grade are you in?

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