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Who do you hold at fault for the Govt shutdown?

Who is at fault for the shutdown?

  • Republicans

    Votes: 87 45.3%
  • Democrats

    Votes: 32 16.7%
  • Both

    Votes: 65 33.9%
  • Neither

    Votes: 8 4.2%

  • Total voters
    192
I hate closed polls. No way to tell how many valid votes there actually were.

It was BOTH parties fault for the closure. It takes two to agree or disagree in any arguement.
 
You remember strangely. I remember a health care plan that was invented by the extreme liberals at the Heritage foundation and first implemented by the extreme liberal who the Republicans nominated in 2012.

I remember health care being a principle point of debate in the 08 election.
The 2008 Presidential Candidates' Health Reform Proposals: Choices for America - The Commonwealth Fund

McCain would change the tax code to encourage people to buy coverage through the individual insurance market and effectively loosen state rules governing the sale of insurance by allowing people to buy policies across state lines. Obama would encourage the continuing participation of employers in the health insurance system, expand eligibility for Medicaid and the State Children's Health Insurance Program (SCHIP), and create a new insurance market "exchange"—with consumer protections, choice of public and private health plans, and income-based premium subsidies—that would largely replace the individual market.

Obama won the 08 election and implemented a more conservative version of his plan in the hopes of bringing on some Republican support. However, the GOP leadership decided that supporting anything Obama did would all but ensure a second term victory, so they made the political calculation to be obstructionists.
My memory is just fine. I understand that I should believe your spin and not my lying eyes, but I think I'll stick to what I witnessed, anyway. The PPACA is a mess, and many of us knew it would be. With that in mind we are now supposed to believe that it was a joint effort by both the left and the right and that the Heritage Foundation dreamed the whole thing up in the first place. The element of truth in that is so small as to not be worthy of consideration. This is largely the result of the GOP offering weak presidential candidates in two elections, so their failure has become a significant one when the consequences are considered. With the normal budget process turned on its head now, there's little wonder we reach such impasses. It has become an all or nothing game, which is exactly what the democrats have desired for the past five years. They engineered it, and it's theirs to own.
 
Both.
-The Tea Party is doing what their constituents voted them in to do. However, I think their constituents would agree that they have taken it far enough. I am one and I would say they've gone far enough. There are other battles to fight and they could gain much more ground by presenting a bill that attaches every provision they want, minus the delay/defunding of the ACA. The Dems couldn't turn that down. The TP would simply have to go public stating they have agreed to dropping the ACA defunding/delay and the Senate is still saying no. That would put an enormous amount of pressure on the Senate. Most of the American people don't care about all of the other stuff the TP is attaching.

- The Dems could at least come to the table, say they would agree to a bill with half of the provisions the TP is presenting, and keep their hardline of no cuts/delay to Obamacare. I think that would get the ball rolling. Instead, they play the "we want a clean bill" crap. The House isn't giving them that. No way at this point. Both parties have gone past the point of no return on this thing.

Both parties could come more to the middle at this point. The points have been made. The House needs to realize they aren't getting anything out of Obamacare. Give it up. The Dems need to realize they aren't getting a clean bill. There is a middle ground there. We all see it. Apparently they can't/
 
My memory is just fine. I understand that I should believe your spin and not my lying eyes, but I think I'll stick to what I witnessed, anyway. The PPACA is a mess, and many of us knew it would be. With that in mind we are now supposed to believe that it was a joint effort by both the left and the right and that the Heritage Foundation dreamed the whole thing up in the first place. The element of truth in that is so small as to not be worthy of consideration. This is largely the result of the GOP offering weak presidential candidates in two elections, so their failure has become a significant one when the consequences are considered. With the normal budget process turned on its head now, there's little wonder we reach such impasses. It has become an all or nothing game, which is exactly what the democrats have desired for the past five years. They engineered it, and it's theirs to own.

Outstanding post my friend. :thumbs:

The Democrats opted years ago to run the financial business of this country through the political circus of continuing resolution. Unilaterally railroading Obamacare through Congress, what do they expect today, especially in light of all the problems, waivers, and wave offs that have become the norm with their program?
 
Outstanding post my friend. :thumbs:

The Democrats opted years ago to run the financial business of this country through the political circus of continuing resolution. Unilaterally railroading Obamacare through Congress, what do they expect today, especially in light of all the problems, waivers, and wave offs that have become the norm with their program?
Thanks, but we know this is true, and it's obvious to any interested, honest observer. In light of what has transpired surrounding the jerks, starts, and exemptions associated with the ACA, anybody could reasonably conclude that it hasn't been well considered or designed. The rollout yesterday provided ample proof they aren't ready for even that part of the legislation. Anybody with any experience at all in such things - private or public - would have known that with such a heralded start up, they should expect a very heavy initial interest. They didn't - or at the least they weren't prepared for what would be considered a no-brainer to most people. All in all, it's pretty inept. Hiding an agenda behind CR's doesn't change the consequences, and the left seems wholly unprepared for that as well. The belief they can control the narrative only works until real events supplant the narrative. They've reached that point, and now they seem desperate to blame the opposition for their poor results.
 
So how come such a simple alternative plan wasn't brought in by republicans months or even years ago? Obamacare wasn't signed into law yesterday.

Because this is the showdown they wanted. GIve us what we want or else. That is not compromise, that is blackmail. Hell closer to terrorism than blackmail.:shock:

What do they not get. ACA is law. No matter what poll they show, the reality is that ACA was a HUGE part of Obama's accomplishments and Obama was re-elected by a large margin. And as recall democrats gained seats in both the senate and the house. Take a hint. Americans may have issues with ACA, but they made sure all the people who would allow it to come to life stayed and even gain more power.

With this type of attempt at "compromise" who could trust the compromise in good faith?

I know of no democrat in real life who thinks this is the final incarnation of health care reform. Most democrats I know in real life see this as a necessary foot in the door.

It is so funny at the hatred spewed at Obama over this. It is funny that none of this hatred ever seemed to be spewed at the large corporations screwing over the consumer without regard to their life or well being.
 
It's good to know that if the Republicans win the Senate next year that the left leaning members here will encourage the President to sign every bill the Republican congress sends to his desk. After all, elections matter and the majority should always get its way, right?
 
When you block budget conferences a whole year, try to repeal a law around 40 times when you know its not going to get anywhere, and you wait till the last second to try to pass a budget which includes approving Keystone pipeline, eliminating funding for PP, broad Tax Reform, defunding Obamacare, means testing for social security, and many various other things and the Democrats literally get nothing but keeping sequester cuts (which they dont like in the first place) and the gov stays open. Thats not a deal, thats not even governing. Thats trying to use the gov as a political tool. Then they want to use short term CR's to keep the government open for a short time so they can do the same thing all over again.
 
It's good to know that if the Republicans win the Senate next year that the left leaning members here will encourage the President to sign every bill the Republican congress sends to his desk. After all, elections matter and the majority should always get its way, right?
Can I steal this and post it on Facebook? :2razz:
 
Who, in your opinion, is primarily at fault for the shutdown?

Standard Republocrat behavior. Neither the Republican nor Democrats actually care because they won't be impacted by the shutdown except for maybe some time off. So they're both willing to drive this break point on partisan grandstanding because they won't get hurt and they can point their finger at the other side and say it's all their fault. Just what we expect out of the modern Republocrat.
 
When you block budget conferences a whole year, try to repeal a law around 40 times when you know its not going to get anywhere, and you wait till the last second to try to pass a budget which includes approving Keystone pipeline, eliminating funding for PP, broad Tax Reform, defunding Obamacare, means testing for social security, and many various other things and the Democrats literally get nothing but keeping sequester cuts (which they dont like in the first place) and the gov stays open. Thats not a deal, thats not even governing. Thats trying to use the gov as a political tool. Then they want to use short term CR's to keep the government open for a short time so they can do the same thing all over again.

It is a cross between blackmail and terrorism.
 
It's good to know that if the Republicans win the Senate next year that the left leaning members here will encourage the President to sign every bill the Republican congress sends to his desk. After all, elections matter and the majority should always get its way, right?

Who ever said that? I hope Dems filibuster everything under the sun like Republicans have. In the past I'd agree that the Dems should respect votes but not anymore. That sort of norm is long gone.
 
My memory is just fine. I understand that I should believe your spin and not my lying eyes, but I think I'll stick to what I witnessed, anyway. The PPACA is a mess, and many of us knew it would be. With that in mind we are now supposed to believe that it was a joint effort by both the left and the right and that the Heritage Foundation dreamed the whole thing up in the first place. The element of truth in that is so small as to not be worthy of consideration. This is largely the result of the GOP offering weak presidential candidates in two elections, so their failure has become a significant one when the consequences are considered. With the normal budget process turned on its head now, there's little wonder we reach such impasses. It has become an all or nothing game, which is exactly what the democrats have desired for the past five years. They engineered it, and it's theirs to own.

This is an excellent example of exactly what is wrong the GOP. I remember reading 1984 for the first time and thinking that this would never work. No one could be so dumb. If you tell people that they're at war with one country, and then suddenly that never happened... well people are going to notice. Apparently that's not true.

The individual mandate and private exchanges were conservative ideas from a conservative think tank. They were first implemented by a conservative Governor. Those are inescapable facts. The "liberal" position is a single payer system, Medicare for all. This was rejected in 92 and could not gather 60 votes in 2009.

You *SHOULD* believe your lying eyes, because they're not lying. And I know that on some level you realize this because your response was a jumble of unrelated thoughts. The PPACA is a mess? Weak candidates? The budget? How does any of this relate to how liberal or conservative the ACA is?
 
And the Dems refusing anything other than exactly what they want is not unreasonable and childish prickisness?

Considering the last time they played games our credit rating was downgraded BECAUSE of the game playing, the Republicans.

Without question.
 
The individual mandate and private exchanges were conservative ideas from a conservative think tank. They were first implemented by a conservative Governor. Those are inescapable facts. The "liberal" position is a single payer system, Medicare for all. This was rejected in 92 and could not gather 60 votes in 2009.

Actually, I think it didn't even get 30 votes. Single payer is never going to happen because too many people have insurance that is more generous than a single payer system would be. Especially unions. But your larger point is correct, those were conservative ideas. However, notice how long it took you to explain them: a paragraph. The bill is 2000 pages long. It's the basic outline of a conservative program with 2000 pages of liberal gobbledygook. Some of which has already been eliminated for being too stupid to survive reality, such as the CLASS act. The medical device tax will probably go down soon as well.
 
Considering the last time they played games our credit rating was downgraded BECAUSE of the game playing, the Republicans.

Without question.

The debt limit brinksmanship was the trigger, but the root cause was the fact that we can't possibly pay our bills in the medium term. As the Baby Boom retirements accelerate, we get closer and closer to default. Most Western countries face the risk of downgrade and many have already been downgraded, because they established pay-as-you-go programs that relied too heavily on population growth and the population NOT aging.
 
This is an excellent example of exactly what is wrong the GOP. I remember reading 1984 for the first time and thinking that this would never work. No one could be so dumb. If you tell people that they're at war with one country, and then suddenly that never happened... well people are going to notice. Apparently that's not true.

The individual mandate and private exchanges were conservative ideas from a conservative think tank. They were first implemented by a conservative Governor. Those are inescapable facts. The "liberal" position is a single payer system, Medicare for all. This was rejected in 92 and could not gather 60 votes in 2009.

You *SHOULD* believe your lying eyes, because they're not lying. And I know that on some level you realize this because your response was a jumble of unrelated thoughts. The PPACA is a mess? Weak candidates? The budget? How does any of this relate to how liberal or conservative the ACA is?

The individual mandate, however sensible, was routinely rejected by Republicans due to it's infringement on personal liberty.
 
The debt limit brinksmanship was the trigger, but the root cause was the fact that we can't possibly pay our bills in the medium term. As the Baby Boom retirements accelerate, we get closer and closer to default. Most Western countries face the risk of downgrade and many have already been downgraded, because they established pay-as-you-go programs that relied too heavily on population growth and the population NOT aging.

Don't forget..if you go down you will take the rest of the world with you..

Sigh..Again!!
 
Actually, I think it didn't even get 30 votes. Single payer is never going to happen because too many people have insurance that is more generous than a single payer system would be. Especially unions. But your larger point is correct, those were conservative ideas. However, notice how long it took you to explain them: a paragraph. The bill is 2000 pages long. It's the basic outline of a conservative program with 2000 pages of liberal gobbledygook. Some of which has already been eliminated for being too stupid to survive reality, such as the CLASS act. The medical device tax will probably go down soon as well.

I have absolutely no problem with changing the ACA. It needs to be tweaked and we need to have a serious discussion about various aspects. But that discussion has to start with ideas to improve it. And the GOP has a lot of good ideas, but they're unable or unwilling to promote them because that would be seen as an endorsement of Obamacare.

Also, the public option had more than 50 votes, (I think it had 54) it just didn't have the 60 required. Granted that's not a full up single payer system, but it would have allowed people to essentially buy medicare instead of a private insurance.
 
Who, in your opinion, is primarily at fault for the shutdown?
When I see the GOP taking credit for something they have been discussing since 2008, seems to be easy to allow them to take the credit for it.
 
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