View Poll Results: Who is at fault for the shutdown?

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  • Republicans

    125 48.08%
  • Democrats

    53 20.38%
  • Both

    73 28.08%
  • Neither

    9 3.46%
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Thread: Who do you hold at fault for the Govt shutdown?

  1. #271
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    Re: Who do you hold at fault for the Govt shutdown?

    I am never sarcastic as that is the language of the weak. I mean what I say. Why do you think I am sarcastic?

  2. #272
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    Re: Who do you hold at fault for the Govt shutdown?

    Quote Originally Posted by vesper View Post
    You keep bringing up Massachusetts as some health reform victory but that just isn't the case.
    To be clear, I don't hold it up as a "victory." What I'd say is that in many but not all respects, it is working. To wit:

    97% of MA residents are now insured.
    It's got a 65% approval rating
    It's working well with the advent of ACO's
    Insurance premiums rose at half the rate of the rest of the US
    Insurers are not going bankrupt
    It hasn't bankrupted the state


    As recently as a couple of months ago studies show long waiting periods to see a general practitioner especially for new patients. It usually takes a referral from an general practitioner to get into see a specialist.
    Maybe if you're in an HMO, but that's not a requirement of any health care law.


    Most new patients in the state of Massachusetts have to wait anywhere between 40 to 71+ days to get into see a doctor.
    I haven't seen any data which suggests it's worse in MA than anywhere else. That's a national issue, not a Massachusetts issue.

    Nothing about the ACA changes the rates at which primary care physicians get paid; that's still between the doctor and the insurer. The only possible way it could have an effect is if the law results in more people going to see doctors.

    And surely you are not going to hold up one and only statistic -- wait times for non-emergency care -- and on that basis declare that Romney's reforms are a disaster across the board?

  3. #273
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    Re: Who do you hold at fault for the Govt shutdown?

    Quote Originally Posted by Visbek View Post
    While somewhat noble, your standard cannot possibly work.

    1) No matter how much you try to point out similarities, people will sort themselves into groups, and will have conflicts over those interests.
    2) I do not accept responsibility for someone whose ideas and actions are completely different than my own.
    3) It doesn't make sense to suggest that someone in Georgia (and is not a national figure) is responsible for the actions of someone in, say, California.
    1.) I agree, but I think there is a solution that is fair to everyone. Natural selection can work for societies too. When a society wants to go in two different directions then they should split apart and go their separate ways just as a cell performing a cell division or mitosis.
    2.) and 3.) Because we are such an interconnected society with the ability for anyone to influence almost anyone who can vote, then everyone is responsible for damages done by others if they do not try to persuade others of what is best or good for the society. You might of heard of the butterfly effect where a butterfly flaps its wings and causes a chain of events that causes a hurricane a month later on the other side of the world when if that small change in air movement had not happened there would not have been a storm. This was proven by the small rounding errors in Lorenz's weather simulator that produced significant changes that did not occur in the simulation without the rounding errors. So everything has the potential to cause great harm or great good due to things understood by chaos theory and complexity science. When you understand how parts in a system are inter-related then you will understand what I mean to say.


    It's not the job of a citizen of Kenya to tell American legislators what to do.
    The world is connected so everything affects everything in time. In a more tangible sense, if those in Kenya do not care about our society and economy, then they will suffer when the value of the dollar drops which many depend on if we go into a default.


    No, we shouldn't.
    Why should we not let those republican lead areas go their own way to govern how they want? I do not agree with their way but they have a knife to the throat of the world economy, so this is a way we can give them what they want and we can get what we want and everyone is happy.


    No such solution exists.

    There are 300 million people in the US. Legislatures almost never reach total consensus. I'm stunned that we all agree that "2+2=4" let alone something as complex as health care reform.

    The simple fact is that like it or not, the decision has been made. The bill was passed into law, it was vetted by the SCOTUS, has survived an absurd number of repeal attempts, and survived an election which was in no small part a referendum on the ACA. It's over.

    The real solution is to get rid of the procedural nonsense which allows a small group (of any political persuasion) to hold the entire government hostage, and for the Republicans to realize that swinging harder to the right is costing them elections.
    How can you possibly know for certain that there is no solution that everyone will like when you unless you understand everything there is to know which no one knows everything? I do agree with your solution to change the way we make decisions so that more people are represented for their ideas and solutions. I am working on a project that will do that, listen to everyone's concerns, values, and visions.

  4. #274
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    Re: Who do you hold at fault for the Govt shutdown?

    Right now Boehner is the man standing in the way of ending the shutdown.

    All he has to do is let the House vote on a clean budget.

  5. #275
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    Re: Who do you hold at fault for the Govt shutdown?

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Republicans didn't leave any choice when they said they would oppose any and every thing.
    And who do you believe said that and when do you think it was said?
    "It's always reassuring to find you've made the right enemies." -- William J. Donovan

  6. #276
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    Re: Who do you hold at fault for the Govt shutdown?

    Quote Originally Posted by mac View Post
    Who, in your opinion, is primarily at fault for the shutdown?

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    Re: Who do you hold at fault for the Govt shutdown?

    Quote Originally Posted by americanwoman View Post
    So how come such a simple alternative plan wasn't brought in by republicans months or even years ago? Obamacare wasn't signed into law yesterday.
    Why should they? I pay for insurance, can't you pay for yours?

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    Re: Who do you hold at fault for the Govt shutdown?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sietske22 View Post
    All we need to do to end this crisis is let the House vote on a clean spending bill that ONLY funds the government and does nothing else.

    Its very simple.

    Why can't Boehner find some courage and do it?
    what about funding for Obamacare, you think money grows on trees for that?

  9. #279
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    Re: Who do you hold at fault for the Govt shutdown?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocketman View Post

    I realize this is just your opinion, but it seemed so appropriate, I couldn't resist! !

    "A picture is worth a thousand words." Attributed to Frederick Barnard.
    Greetings, Rocketman.

  10. #280
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    Re: Who do you hold at fault for the Govt shutdown?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocketman View Post
    Why should they? I pay for insurance, can't you pay for yours?
    Yes I can - I actually do pay for my own and for my family, why do you think I don't? Because I am for healthcare reform?

    I don't know about you but I don't really like it when a 5 year old child with cancer is denied coverage and treatment by a company that pays it's CEO millions upon millions of dollars. Something is kinda wrong with that picture. You might be with the let the baby die, the ceo earns his money blah blah blah crowd but I prefer to have a heart.


    edit: oh and as a healthy in-shape non tobacco young woman, I am probably paying more than my fair share for those who aren't so lucky healthwise and I could care less.
    I call my own shots, largely based on an accumulation of data, and everyone knows it.
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