View Poll Results: Who is at fault for the shutdown?

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  • Republicans

    125 48.08%
  • Democrats

    53 20.38%
  • Both

    73 28.08%
  • Neither

    9 3.46%
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Thread: Who do you hold at fault for the Govt shutdown?

  1. #251
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    Re: Who do you hold at fault for the Govt shutdown?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Hays View Post
    Health care is a commodity, like food, clothing and shelter. As with those, buy it or receive it as charity. I would rather subsidize unpaid ER use via higher costs than impose coercion on Americans. In other words, I would prefer the pre-ACA status quo ante to the ACA. If that's not politically feasible then go all the way to single payer. ACA is a coercive, incoherent mishmash that destroys freedom while subsidizing both government and the insurance/drug complex.
    Agreed except for the endorsement of single payer, which would give all of us the poor quality of health care now available only on Indian reservations. There are changes we could make to the status quo ante which would improve the system without the heavy hand of government: allow policy purchase across state lines (like auto insurance); make premium payments by individuals tax deductible for the individual; allow formation of sponsor groups other than employers, like the Elks or Kiwanis. The heavy hand of bureaucratic regulation never works out well for the patients.
    "We the people are the rightful masters of both Congress & the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution, but overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution."
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  2. #252
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    Re: Who do you hold at fault for the Govt shutdown?

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    Young people eager to execute Obamacare, you make the leftwingers proud.
    Count me among those eager to execute Obamacare, but probably not in the sense you meant...
    "We the people are the rightful masters of both Congress & the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution, but overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution."
    - Abraham Lincoln

  3. #253
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    Re: Who do you hold at fault for the Govt shutdown?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dezaad View Post
    I pretty much agree with this. However, I don't get to shut down the government because I think this. The House has a responsibility to fund the laws on the books. The law can be repealed once the Republicans have enough control to do so.
    150 years ago, the Democrats argued that slavery was established law; suck it up and learn to love it. 50 years ago the Democrats argued that segregation was established law; suck it up and learn to love it. Now the Democrats argue that Obamacare is established law; suck it up and learn to love it. I see a pattern here...
    "We the people are the rightful masters of both Congress & the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution, but overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution."
    - Abraham Lincoln

  4. #254
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    Re: Who do you hold at fault for the Govt shutdown?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal View Post
    Morning!

    Look, just saying "it's complicated" isn't really an argument against PPACA. You've got to actually address the pros and cons of the plan itself.

    The reason I support the PPACA, if you're in the least bit curious, isn't because I think it's an edifice of perfection (I don't know anyone who does). We wanted universal health care. But the reason I support PPACA is because the votes and the political momentum just doesn't exist for something like UHC. If we scrap PPACA, flawed as it may be, we get nothing and will continue to get nothing for perhaps a generation.

    Remember: perfect is the enemy of good enough.
    Good points made in your post, Cardinal! Would something like Medicare-type coverage for all be workable, with the option of adding more if you choose to do so, or does that get into areas that people don't like or fear about government control? It would be easier to understand, and it would be the same for everyone, no matter where you live. The retirees sure seem to be ready to fight to keep it!

    I like your quote, BTW!

  5. #255
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    Re: Who do you hold at fault for the Govt shutdown?

    Quote Originally Posted by polgara View Post
    Good points made in your post, Cardinal! Would something like Medicare-type coverage for all be workable, with the option of adding more if you choose to do so, or does that get into areas that people don't like or fear about government control? It would be easier to understand, and it would be the same for everyone, no matter where you live. The retirees sure seem to be ready to fight to keep it!

    I like your quote, BTW!
    Would an extension of medicare to everyone not, in effect, be universal health care?

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    Re: Who do you hold at fault for the Govt shutdown?

    Quote Originally Posted by Diogenes View Post
    150 years ago, the Democrats argued that slavery was established law; suck it up and learn to love it. 50 years ago the Democrats argued that segregation was established law; suck it up and learn to love it. Now the Democrats argue that Obamacare is established law; suck it up and learn to love it. I see a pattern here...
    What, you couldn't think of a way to put "Hitler" in there?

  7. #257
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    Re: Who do you hold at fault for the Govt shutdown?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal View Post
    What, you couldn't think of a way to put "Hitler" in there?
    Not necessary. I leave the Hitler references to liberals who use those references to distract from the feebleness of their arguments.
    "We the people are the rightful masters of both Congress & the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution, but overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution."
    - Abraham Lincoln

  8. #258
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    Re: Who do you hold at fault for the Govt shutdown?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal View Post
    Would an extension of medicare to everyone not, in effect, be universal health care?
    Probably, but that seems to be a problem for many people. I believe that the current ACA will be such a mess, though, that it could eventually be what we end up with, which may have been the ultimate goal all along.

  9. #259
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    Re: Who do you hold at fault for the Govt shutdown?

    Quote Originally Posted by polgara View Post
    Probably, but that seems to be a problem for many people. I believe that the current ACA will be such a mess, though, that it could eventually be what we end up with, which may have been the ultimate goal all along.
    Why is that a problem for many people? Genuinely curious.

    ACA won't be as bad as you think. Obviously it's not an ideal long term solution (again, I don't know anyone who thinks it is), but the doomsday hype over ACA has been completely over the top. When the majority of the opposing arguments consist of media scare phrases like totalitarianism, implosion of our economy or death panels, you're just not getting very good information.
    Last edited by Cardinal; 10-03-13 at 01:29 PM.

  10. #260
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    Re: Who do you hold at fault for the Govt shutdown?

    Quote Originally Posted by humbolt View Post
    Okay. I guess that's why it's called Heritagecare.
    If Romney had won the election we'd be calling it Romneycare.

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