View Poll Results: Who is at fault for the shutdown?

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  • Republicans

    125 48.08%
  • Democrats

    53 20.38%
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    73 28.08%
  • Neither

    9 3.46%
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Thread: Who do you hold at fault for the Govt shutdown?

  1. #231
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    Jack Hays's Avatar
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    Re: Who do you hold at fault for the Govt shutdown?

    Quote Originally Posted by Visbek View Post
    And is Heritage a left-wing think tank, too?
    ACA is a bad idea no matter where it came from.
    "It's always reassuring to find you've made the right enemies." -- William J. Donovan

  2. #232
    Educator Sietske22's Avatar
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    Re: Who do you hold at fault for the Govt shutdown?

    Boehner is at fault.

    He won't let the House vote on a clean bill.

  3. #233
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    Re: Who do you hold at fault for the Govt shutdown?

    Quote Originally Posted by Visbek View Post
    Obviously, you didn't read a single link I posted.

    Heritage and Romney were explicitly and unquestionably supporting every major feature of what went into the ACA: individual mandates, Medicare expansions, health insurance exchanges, subsidies on health insurance, requirements for insurers to accept pre-existing conditions and so forth. They supported Romney's reforms, it was unquestionably a bipartisan effort, and iirc had representatives when it was signed into law.

    Every major component of the ACA was developed by conservatives and Republicans, notably Romney, and the impetus was to offer a free-market solution. Their goal was to stop people from freeloading off the system (e.g. only getting health insurance when they need it).

    It is screamingly obvious that "this should not be a federal law" is a very small part of the criticism of the ACA. Republicans are not shutting down the government because of the principles of federalism. They are openly targeting the parts of the law whose origins were developed by conservatives, as a free-market solution.

    Most, I'm sure, genuinely believe it's a bad policy -- despite the fact that none of their dire warnings have come to pass in MA. However, I'm pretty sure that their abject hatred of Obama, and failure to accept that they lacked the votes to elect a Republican president, all play into their beliefs and emotions on the matter.



    The question is not "who vote for it." The question is "who came up with the idea, and what were their motivations?" The answer is "conservatives" and "offer a free-market solution."



    Sorry. I didn't. You lost me with your first sentence. My canoe is similar to the Nimitz, too. They're both boats.

  4. #234
    Educator Sietske22's Avatar
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    Re: Who do you hold at fault for the Govt shutdown?

    Quote Originally Posted by mac View Post
    What Bill? and what budget for that matter.
    The Senate took the House bill, stripped out the stuff that was unrelated to the Continuing Resolution, and sent it back to the House.

    Boehner won't let them vote on it.

    So much for democracy.

  5. #235
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    Re: Who do you hold at fault for the Govt shutdown?

    Quote Originally Posted by Visbek View Post
    With all due respect, that article is a massive truckload of BS.

    The WSJ called him on it: Heritage Rewrites History - WSJ.com

    Fox recognizes Heritage as the origin of the individual mandate: Individual health care insurance mandate has roots two decades long | Fox News


    Heritage defended Romneycare, including individual mandates, in 2006: Understanding Key Parts of the Massachusetts Health Plan

    And again The Significance of Massachusetts Health Reform
    and again The Massachusetts Approach: A New Way To Restructure State Health Insurance Markets And Public Programs
    and again Massachusetts Health Reform: What the doctor ordered
    You keep bringing up Massachusetts as some health reform victory but that just isn't the case.

    As recently as a couple of months ago studies show long waiting periods to see a general practitioner especially for new patients. It usually takes a referral from an general practitioner to get into see a specialist.

    Most new patients in the state of Massachusetts have to wait anywhere between 40 to 71+ days to get into see a doctor. Experts have been warning for years this would be the case under Obamacare too.

    Hard-To-Get Primary Care: Mass. Waits Still Long, ‘No New Patients’ Common | CommonHealth
    Last edited by vesper; 10-03-13 at 11:03 AM.

  6. #236
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    Boo Radley's Avatar
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    Re: Who do you hold at fault for the Govt shutdown?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Hays View Post
    ACA is a bad idea no matter where it came from.
    Only many complaining here would love ACA if republicans were in control.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

  7. #237
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    Re: Who do you hold at fault for the Govt shutdown?

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Only many complaining here would love ACA if republicans were in control.
    No that is false.
    ACA is a direct attack on the insurance sector of the economy.
    It is riddled with numerous tax increases many that have nothing to do with the healthcare industry to help pay for it. We haven't felt the brunt of all these taxes yet, 14 more will be implemented starting January 1, 2014.
    ACA is causing job layoffs and forcing many into part time status so the employer can avoid all the additional mandates resulting in high costs in covering their employees.
    None of this is supported by the majority on the right. The left in their game of social justice is killing capitalism through corporatism one private sector at a time.

  8. #238
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    Cardinal's Avatar
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    Re: Who do you hold at fault for the Govt shutdown?

    Quote Originally Posted by mac View Post
    Who, in your opinion, is primarily at fault for the shutdown?
    Republicans of course. Putting the defunding of PPACA in the budget is an obvious (and extraordinarily childish) nonstarter.

  9. #239
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    Morality Games's Avatar
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    Re: Who do you hold at fault for the Govt shutdown?

    Irrelevant, different system, different laws.
    Not really. "You give, you get" works in any political system, and it has worked in the United States, and would have worked for Republicans. It's less a problem of systems and laws and more a problem of culture: partisans in the United Kingdom want their side to make a good trade, partisans in the United States want crushing, glorious victory over every mole hill.

    BS. The Republicans have been compromising with Democrats for 5 years.
    In the land of the sugar plum fairies with the make-believe trees. How can we both have a "different system" with "different laws" where compromise does not figure and and yet we can also say Republicans make meaningful compromises in the past five years?

    And so no Imperative for the Republicans to work with them. The house funds government, and it's run by Republicans.
    ... all of Congress funds the government, and it is shared between Democrats and Republicans. Plus a commanding majority of the public did not want the shutdown, and even if they did, the consequences of a government shut down are bad for all political actors, whereas getting rid of Obamacare is only good for Republicans. You can't threaten something that is bad for everyone to get something that is only good for yourself and expect results. That's identical to saying that Republicans should rule society when they have an electoral mandate but also whenever they don't.
    Last edited by Morality Games; 10-03-13 at 11:28 AM.
    If you notice something good in yourself, give credit to God, not to yourself, but be certain the evil you commit is always your own and yours to acknowledge.

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  10. #240
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    Re: Who do you hold at fault for the Govt shutdown?

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Only many complaining here would love ACA if republicans were in control.
    No, they wouldn't, not in its current form. It has the appearance of being cobbled together, it's confusing, and most people are not attorneys who talk in circles. Whatever happened to the concept of K.I.S.S.? keep it simple, stupid!

    Greetings, BooRadley.

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