View Poll Results: Who is at fault for the shutdown?

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  • Republicans

    125 48.08%
  • Democrats

    53 20.38%
  • Both

    73 28.08%
  • Neither

    9 3.46%
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Thread: Who do you hold at fault for the Govt shutdown?

  1. #141
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    Re: Who do you hold at fault for the Govt shutdown?

    Quote Originally Posted by Diogenes View Post
    Since the hallmark of ACA is coercion, it is hard to describe it as anything but liberal. Conservatives believe in the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness - everything that liberals are opposed to.
    Only if you conflate Libertarianism with Conservatism. The ACA is a conservative idea invented by Conservatives in response to a bipartisan mandate that forces hospital ERs to treat people first, and worry about getting paid second. Do you remember the kid who bled out from a gunshot outside the doors of a hospital while the ER doctors looked on from inside the hospital? Because we all think that's a terrible system.

    But that mandate means that people can get health care without paying for it. The ACA is based on the idea of personal responsibility, there's a chance you'll need emergency care so you'd better pay for insurance so that the rest of us aren't stuck with your bill. That's as Conservative as it gets.

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    Re: Who do you hold at fault for the Govt shutdown?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mithros View Post
    I see why you're so bothered by liberalism. It's so insidious that even conservative think-tanks come up with liberal ideas. But I think you can see why many people would strongly object to the individual mandate being called a liberal idea.. mostly because it's not.

    But you're right. You made a completely unsubstantiated assertion that the Heritage foundations proposal and the ACA are "seriously" different. What exactly is the difference?

    HF, Romneycare, and ObamaCare are all based on the individual mandate. Romneycare has a bigger penalty for not buying insurance. Romneycare applies to buisnesses with 11 or more employees, Obamacare applies to 50+. Obamacare includes a tax credit for small businesses (Proposed by McCain), Romneycare doesn’t.

    Criticize the ACA to your hearts content. It's far from perfect. However, don't call it liberal.
    It's liberal. Not one single member of the GOP voted for it. Don't blame Heritage for ObamaCare mandate

  3. #143
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    Re: Who do you hold at fault for the Govt shutdown?

    The Republicans. There was no scenario possible that pointed to either the Senate or the White House being open to negotiations with the entire federal budget as leverage. Caving in would set a poor precedent for these situations in the future and leave the law even more vulnerable to opposing pressure.

  4. #144
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    Re: Who do you hold at fault for the Govt shutdown?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mithros View Post
    Only if you conflate Libertarianism with Conservatism. The ACA is a conservative idea invented by Conservatives in response to a bipartisan mandate that forces hospital ERs to treat people first, and worry about getting paid second. Do you remember the kid who bled out from a gunshot outside the doors of a hospital while the ER doctors looked on from inside the hospital? Because we all think that's a terrible system.

    But that mandate means that people can get health care without paying for it. The ACA is based on the idea of personal responsibility, there's a chance you'll need emergency care so you'd better pay for insurance so that the rest of us aren't stuck with your bill. That's as Conservative as it gets.
    Health care is a commodity, like food, clothing and shelter. As with those, buy it or receive it as charity. I would rather subsidize unpaid ER use via higher costs than impose coercion on Americans. In other words, I would prefer the pre-ACA status quo ante to the ACA. If that's not politically feasible then go all the way to single payer. ACA is a coercive, incoherent mishmash that destroys freedom while subsidizing both government and the insurance/drug complex.
    "It's always reassuring to find you've made the right enemies." -- William J. Donovan

  5. #145
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    Re: Who do you hold at fault for the Govt shutdown?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Hays View Post
    Health care is a commodity, like food, clothing and shelter. As with those, buy it or receive it as charity. I would rather subsidize unpaid ER use via higher costs than impose coercion on Americans. In other words, I would prefer the pre-ACA status quo ante to the ACA. If that's not politically feasible then go all the way to single payer. ACA is a coercive, incoherent mishmash that destroys freedom while subsidizing both government and the insurance/drug complex.
    But that's the same thing. Every American who had health insurance was forced to pay an average of $1000.00 a year extra to cover the uninsured under the now previous system. Under the ACA you either have to have insurance or pay a portion of the average amount you'll cost the rest of us by not being insured. Either way you're stuck with some form of a mandate unless you want to get rid of the mandate that says hospitals must treat patients before they worry about getting paid.

    But regardless, I'm in total agreement about most everything else. The ACA is a coercive, mismash of ideas. A single payer system would be MUCH better, and would greatly lower costs. It's easy for hospitals to charge a single patient 75$ for an asprin, but quite another thing when there's a single entity paying for everyone.

  6. #146
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    Re: Who do you hold at fault for the Govt shutdown?

    Quote Originally Posted by americanwoman View Post
    There's no poll yet but I think it's ridiculous neither side can compromise. Yes, there are provisions that need to be worked out but why did the ones who oppose it not only wait until the last minute but have no alternative to bring to the table. Something needs to be done with healthcare and while Obamacare isn't perfect it's a start and maybe we should give it a try and if it doesn't work, then fix it.
    Young people eager to execute Obamacare, you make the leftwingers proud.
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
    "Fly-over" country voted, and The Donald is now POTUS.

  7. #147
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    Re: Who do you hold at fault for the Govt shutdown?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Hays View Post
    Health care is a commodity, like food, clothing and shelter. As with those, buy it or receive it as charity. I would rather subsidize unpaid ER use via higher costs than impose coercion on Americans. In other words, I would prefer the pre-ACA status quo ante to the ACA. If that's not politically feasible then go all the way to single payer. ACA is a coercive, incoherent mishmash that destroys freedom while subsidizing both government and the insurance/drug complex.
    Holy crap, someone else who believes in ER health care.

    Who teaches this crap?

  8. #148
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    Re: Who do you hold at fault for the Govt shutdown?

    Quote Originally Posted by year2late View Post
    Holy crap, someone else who believes in ER health care.

    Who teaches this crap?
    Who teaches that healthcare is a human right? No, scratch that. Who teaches that someone else's service/labor is a human right?

  9. #149
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    Re: Who do you hold at fault for the Govt shutdown?

    Quote Originally Posted by humbolt View Post
    It's liberal. Not one single member of the GOP voted for it. Don't blame Heritage for ObamaCare mandate
    With all due respect, that article is a massive truckload of BS.

    The WSJ called him on it: Heritage Rewrites History - WSJ.com

    Fox recognizes Heritage as the origin of the individual mandate: Individual health care insurance mandate has roots two decades long | Fox News


    Heritage defended Romneycare, including individual mandates, in 2006: Understanding Key Parts of the Massachusetts Health Plan

    And again The Significance of Massachusetts Health Reform
    and again The Massachusetts Approach: A New Way To Restructure State Health Insurance Markets And Public Programs
    and again Massachusetts Health Reform: What the doctor ordered

  10. #150
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    Re: Who do you hold at fault for the Govt shutdown?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gimmesometruth View Post
    Switching criteria? The question was "is it new?" No it is not.
    Yes it is. No law before required an individual to purchase health insurance.

    I have seen this argument that irresponsibility is a liberty.
    This, is a dead end argument
    No, the government making your personal decisions for you is an attack on personal liberty. Without doubt.

    Most that are on "welfare" are children, the unemployed and the caretakers of said children. This conflating of "welfare" with getting people in into health insurance is rather confused. The ACA extends welfare and supplements those who cannot fully afford insurance. Again, would you rather have expensive ER care that we all have to pay for be the care of last resort....as it has been for decades?
    That's incorrect. Children are not on welfare, the parents of said children are. Many of them are employed and have made insanely bad decisions getting them to where they are. Should the government tell them they can't have anymore (or any) kids until they can learn to live responsibly?

    Good grief, the tangents are amazing.
    That's not a tangent, homey.
    ”People willing to trade their freedom for temporary security deserve neither and will lose both.” --- Ben Franklin

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    Sterotypes are mostly based on truths.

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