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28. You may not vote on this poll
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    7 25.00%
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Thread: Do you feel it's wrong for these politicians to be taking this action?

  1. #11
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    Re: Do you feel it's wrong for these politicians to be taking this action?

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    the Republican mantra that the sky is going to fall. It's simply not true.
    Oh, it is not going to fall: It will be gradually getting lower, lower and lower - until it is pressing against your face, like a coffin lid. A whimper, not a bang. This is a civilized country.

    Here we have the greatest, most amazing health care potential ever, in the whole history of the human race: A scientific and technological superpower of the USA, perfectly ready to tackle medical problems that were unassailable even two or three decades ago.

    And what are we doing?

    Refusing absolutely to allow this to happen: making sure that the health care market is cornered, blocked and suffocated between the two obese monstrosities: the government bureaucracies and the faux-insurance industry.

    This is what the Obamacare is all about.

    It is not a step toward a relatively streamlined Scandinavian-style socialized health care (not what I want, but could be worse). It is not a step toward liberating the health care market forces (what I want, but doesn't seem to be happening, and the GOP is not much of help). It is a massive, concerted blow to the best of hopes of any sincere people both on the "the left" or "the right". It combines the worst of both worlds. It has to be resisted, tooth and nail, to the bitter end.

    Just my typically humble opinion.

  2. #12
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    Re: Do you feel it's wrong for these politicians to be taking this action?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    QUESTION: If a politician takes a stance that they campaigned heavily on and their constituents favor, should they be attacked for the act of taking the stance and why?

    (SNIP)
    I'm not asking "Do you agree with those in the congress like Rep. Ellmers stance?"...I'm asking "Do you think it's unreasonable or wrong that members of congress like Rep. Ellmers are taking these actions?"
    It depends on what you mean by "taking a stance." To take a stance that is symbolic only, which harms, or may harm, citizens and the country, and which does not move the country toward the stance taken....no, that is not the proper thing to do. The first thing our political leaders should do, no matter what, is not harm citizens and the country. They should also not do things which stand in the way of the governance of the country. They are where they are for the purpose of governing. Governing includes furthering the laws in existence.

    There are separate steps a politician can/should take in order to CHANGE laws their consitutuents don't like. It is THIS way in which the constituents have their voice in government.

    Beward of politicians who grandstand. They don't do it for the benefit of their constituents or their country.

  3. #13
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    Re: Do you feel it's wrong for these politicians to be taking this action?

    dude only in a world gone totally insane would folks who believe in American values be pilloried as terrorists
    like totally, ya know??
    New Hope for the Wretched era

  4. #14
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    Re: Do you feel it's wrong for these politicians to be taking this action?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    QUESTION: If a politician takes a stance that they campaigned heavily on and their constituents favor, should they be attacked for the act of taking the stance and why?

    There's been a lot of anger and resentment it seems aimed at the "tea partiers" in the Congress leveraging this "Crisis" as a means of attempting to stop/delay/thwart the ACA in some fashion. However, here's my question. Do you fault them?

    First, would most agree that it's at least somewhat reasonable to assume that our elected officials, regardless of them being Republicans are Democrats, in general believe that the things they believe regarding the government are what's best for the health of the nation be it long term, short term, or both? IE...Democrats aren't secretly cackling as they try to "destroy america" and turn us into a "dependent state", nor are Republicans sitting with Mr. Burns steepled fingers attempting to rig the system because they hate minorities and want to just make the 1% rich. That both sides politicians, by and large, act and support things because they honestly do believe (whether you agree with them or not) that it's in the best interest of the country.

    Second, would you agree with it's the job of a politician to represent his constituents and to be their voice in the government? And to attempt to uphold and follow through with those things upon which they campaigned on and gained the support of their constiuents over? While there's an understanding that sometimes things may change (with new info, the person no longer feels it's best for the country), some things may need to be lowered in priority, and sometimes they may not be successful...that in general, a politician should attempt to follow through with what they campaigned on.

    As such...takes for example Renee Ellmers. Renee is a Republican that won a seat in the House, knocking out a Democratic incumbant. Renee is a former nurse whose primary reason for getting into politics was her opposition to the ACA. The primary campaign point of her 2010 run to get into the house was opposition to the ACA and aiming to attempt to fight it in any way possible. She was reelected in 2012 with that still a part of her campaign. While I can't find information about just her district, 50% of her state feels that the ACA would make things worse (with only 29% believing it'd make it better) [Source].

    There should be no question, she honestly feels that the removal of the ACA is an important and necessary thing for the health of his country. There should be no question that she ousted a 7 term incumbant on the back of her opposition and pledge to fight the ACA. There should be no question that at least a reasonable majority of her constituents are negative, rather than positive, towards the ACA.

    So why, other than you PERSONALLY DISAGREEING WITH HER, should she not represent her constituents and what she feels is best for the country with her vote?

    The same goes for many of these others.

    I can understand arguing against their points. I can understand suggesting their logic is wrong. I can understand with you feeling their belief of what's best is incorrect. I can understand you being frustrated with them trying to legally stop something that has been passed or possibly putting a government shut down at risk.

    What I don't understand is the vitriol and anger vented towards them for daring to even DO this? Don't we typically WANT our politicians to do what they campaigned on and promised? Don't we typically WANT our politicians representing their constituents? Don't we generally WANT our politicians to attempt and have principles and stand on them?

    I'm not asking "Do you agree with those in the congress like Rep. Ellmers stance?"...I'm asking "Do you think it's unreasonable or wrong that members of congress like Rep. Ellmers are taking these actions?"
    I don't buy in your perception of the issue at all because I don't accept their motivations as honest. No matter how many former nurses you push forward as sincere opponents of Obamacare, there are ten other conservatives acting in some degree of false consciousness.

    If Republicans aren't capable of honoring or even taking responsibility for hard working people losing their sources of income as well as any sense of job security, then they don't have a right to perform morally significant or politically important actions anyway.
    Last edited by Morality Games; 10-01-13 at 02:26 AM.
    If you notice something good in yourself, give credit to God, not to yourself, but be certain the evil you commit is always your own and yours to acknowledge.

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    Re: Do you feel it's wrong for these politicians to be taking this action?

    nice play there Morality:
    Republicans aren't...taking responsibility for hard working people losing their sources of income

    dude now it's the GOP's fault?
    srsly?
    come to think of it yer right the salvation of the nation does seem to lie solely with us teabaggers and we are failing miserably

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    Re: Do you feel it's wrong for these politicians to be taking this action?

    I believe it is irresponsible to campaign as the OP has described. So, my opposition to these politicians, and my ridicule of them, starts there. And once they are elected by irresponsible voters, my stance does not change. They, and the people who voted for them, are very much all at fault.

    Furthermore, this is a Republic. Politicians are supposed to show leadership, and we are responsible to elect leaders. Leaders who are capable of making responsible decisions, even when it may cost them politically.

    Properly understood, there is no political cover to be found by attempting to devise a relationship between politicians and voters where everyone is absolved of responsibility.
    You can never be safe from a government that can keep you completely safe from each other and the world. You must choose.

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    Re: Do you feel it's wrong for these politicians to be taking this action?

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    every figure of speech it's not meant to be interpreted literally
    and how many Republicans voted for socialized health care?

  8. #18
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    Re: Do you feel it's wrong for these politicians to be taking this action?

    Many people don't understand or appreciate a principled stand by a politician because standing on principles is not the usual MO of the average politician. I, personally, have great respect for a politician who stands by what they believe in even if it potentially causes them to lose their seat or whatever next election they run in. It's partly why I have a lot of respect for former President GW Bush and why I have little respect for President Obama. Bush is a man of principle who makes mistakes for good reasons, Obama is a man totally lacking in principle who makes mistakes because he has no inner compass to guide him, whose only goals are personal and political.

    I admire the politician outlined in the OP for two main reasons. Number one, she saw something her government was doing that she didn't like and instead of just bitching about it, she went out, put herself on the line, and convinced a majority of the electorate in her district to send her to Washington to change it. Secondly, when she got to Washington, she didn't forget where she came from and why she's there. Those are two very important reasons to admire her and not criticize her.
    "Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views." William F. Buckley Jr.

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    Re: Do you feel it's wrong for these politicians to be taking this action?

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadaJohn View Post
    Bush is a man of principle who makes mistakes for good reasons, Obama is a man totally lacking in principle who makes mistakes because he has no inner compass to guide him, whose only goals are personal and political.
    New Hope for the Wretched era

  10. #20
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    Re: Do you feel it's wrong for these politicians to be taking this action?

    If politicians want to listen to their constituents, fine, but there are proper methods to enact legislative change.

    1) Get a legislative majority so you can pass/repeal bills using the democratic process. The Republicans don't have that at the moment, so they would have to wait for an election.
    2) Cut a deal with the democrats in a quid pro quo exchange. Make an offer repealing certain provisions of the affordable care act in return for say immigration reform or something else the democrats want.

    What is unacceptable is demanding legislative change, offering nothing in return and then threatening to damage the whole nation if you don't get your way. We are a Republic for damned good reasons and this is precisely the sort of case where sanity and stability must prevail over the mob.

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