View Poll Results: Is our civilisation pathetic?

Voters
62. You may not vote on this poll
  • Yes

    10 16.13%
  • No

    52 83.87%
Page 40 of 53 FirstFirst ... 30383940414250 ... LastLast
Results 391 to 400 of 527

Thread: Our civilisation is pathetic. [W:459]

  1. #391
    Human 2.0
    Maximus Zeebra's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Western Europe
    Last Seen
    09-07-17 @ 10:19 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    6,568

    re: Our civilisation is pathetic. [W:459]

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    Alas.

    We can't all be Venetians.
    Well, I truly hope you do become a nice person someday, and that your mind opens. That you treat others with care and respect and focus on what is important in life.

    Personally, since you say in your profile you are "filmmaker lawyer patriot", I can only think your methods would be to manipulate in any way to try to be right and discredit others as much as you can, to win arguments where you are not even right. Because for a lawyer, nothing is about right or wrong, its a matter of winning, no matter if it is right or wrong. Many lawyers will use any method to win, dishonesty, go against their own integrity, manipulate, deceive, intellectual dishonesty, abuse of law and so fourth..

    I forgive you for that.

    Washington is full of lawyers.

    I dont even want to start talking about patriots.
    Europe is illegally occupied by the US

  2. #392
    Filmmaker Lawyer Patriot
    Harshaw's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Last Seen
    Today @ 11:54 AM
    Lean
    Libertarian - Right
    Posts
    29,541

    re: Our civilisation is pathetic. [W:459]

    Quote Originally Posted by Maximus Zeebra View Post
    Well, I truly hope you do become a nice person someday, and that your mind opens. That you treat others with care and respect and focus on what is important in life.

    Personally, since you say in your profile you are "filmmaker lawyer patriot", I can only think your methods would be to manipulate in any way to try to be right and discredit others as much as you can, to win arguments where you are not even right. Because for a lawyer, nothing is about right or wrong, its a matter of winning, no matter if it is right or wrong. Many lawyers will use any method to win, dishonesty, go against their own integrity, manipulate, deceive, intellectual dishoneste, abuse of law and so fourth..

    Washington is full of lawyers.

    I dont even want to start talking about patriots.
    Actually, what all of those things mean is that I'm artistic, educated, and with a sense of history as it pertains to things like liberty and free and open society.

    But do keep in mind, however "not nice" I may be, I have reserved my comments to attacking what you post rather than casting aspersions unto your person. If I am not nice, yet am not personally insulting you while you are me, what does that make you?
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

  3. #393
    Anti-Hypocrite
    molten_dragon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Southeast Michigan
    Last Seen
    Today @ 05:56 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Slightly Liberal
    Posts
    9,351

    re: Our civilisation is pathetic. [W:459]

    Quote Originally Posted by Maximus Zeebra View Post
    I dont agree with you. My personal take is that the reason is, because people in general have absolutely no influence on what the world becomes like. That seems to be reserved to the most manipulative among us, who will do anything to get to power. Unfortunately, those are exactly the people who should not be in power. In general, the few should not govern the many either. The many should govern the many.
    No, it's quite true. We're pretty much all bags of **** that only care about ourselves and our close friends and family when you get right down to it. We simply aren't built to consider things on a global scale. Pretty much everyone is equally guilty of it. There are exceptions, but they're few and far between.

    We do have the power to influence the world, we just don't care to. If things are okay for us and the people close to us, who cares if a bunch of people I've never met thousands of miles away are starving to death. Sure, it's sad, but we're not going to give up anything of ours to change it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maximus Zeebra View Post
    I dont think you are right about lowering standard. Our standards are pretty damn low. And how high standards are highly depends on how you define them. If you think high standards is to work all day, all week, all years, most of your life, so that you can buy a lot of junk you dont need, then yes, the standard would be lower. But if you measured it in progress, living standards and happiness, I am convinced it would be much higher.
    I'm not convinced of that at all. In the very long term things might be better for everyone, but in the short to mid term, things would need to get a lot crappier for those who are well off now, to make it better for those who are in bad shape.

    The average GDP per capita for the US is roughly $50,000. Much of Europe is in the $40,000-$60,000 range. The average world GDP per capita is around $10,000. So a lot of people are getting by on a lot less than that. If we averaged it all and made everything equal for everyone in the world, it would mean the average person in the developed world would have to give up 75%-85% of what they have. And you can say 'Oh, but it's just stuff you don't need', but that doesn't really cover it (and isn't really true). It would mean dramatically lowering healthcare standards in most of the developed world, living in tiny houses, probably being unable to own a car (how exactly will we get to work?), owning fewer clothes (we can't all walk around naked, and clothes wear out), not being able to afford as varied a diet, no access to higher education for most people, etc. etc. etc. It would have a dramatic negative impact on the quality of life for most people in the developed world. And you think they're just going to give that up so some stranger can have clean water and a bowl of rice? Dream on.

    But don't let me stop you. If you think it's so important, why don't you give up that computer and internet service you're using to post here (after all, that's just junk you don't need) and use the money to raise the standard of living for some stranger in the Congo.
    If you build a man a fire, he'll be warm for a day.

    If you set a man on fire, he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

  4. #394
    Human 2.0
    Maximus Zeebra's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Western Europe
    Last Seen
    09-07-17 @ 10:19 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    6,568

    re: Our civilisation is pathetic. [W:459]

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    Actually, what all of those things mean is that I'm artistic, educated, and with a sense of history as it pertains to things like liberty and free and open society.

    But do keep in mind, however "not nice" I may be, I have reserved my comments to attacking what you post rather than casting aspersions unto your person. If I am not nice, yet am not personally insulting you while you are me, what does that make you?
    Nah, you are trying to harass me. You are not talking about the topic. You are draggin me into some petty discussion about nothing. Ofcourse I loose my temper when you harass me like that and write such awful and deeply flawed thinking posts.

    I didnt have to look, I have long since had you on ignore on this forum. But I thought you might have had something constructive, interesting or relevant to say. But my, was I disappointed.

    But I hope you can forgive me for getting angry. I forgive you for being utterly rude and trying to harass me instead of discussing the topic.
    Last edited by Maximus Zeebra; 10-02-13 at 09:13 PM.
    Europe is illegally occupied by the US

  5. #395
    Filmmaker Lawyer Patriot
    Harshaw's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Last Seen
    Today @ 11:54 AM
    Lean
    Libertarian - Right
    Posts
    29,541

    re: Our civilisation is pathetic. [W:459]

    Quote Originally Posted by Maximus Zeebra View Post
    Nah, you are trying to harass me. You are not talking about the topic. You are draggin me into some petty discussion about nothing. Ofcourse I loose my temper when you harass me like that and write such awful and deeply flawed thinking posts.

    But I hope you can forgive me for that. I forgive you.

    I didnt have to look, I have long since had you on ignore on this forum. But I thought you might have had something constructive, interesting or relevant to say. But my, was I disappointed.
    I boiled your topic down to what you're actually saying, using your own words. You yourself attributed everything bad you said to the US and then merely mentioned that Europe is headed that way.

    I mean, the whole thing is childish bull****, as nearly 400 posts in the thread have already told you. But sorry, dude, your posts are one-track and singular in topic. They all boil down to the same thing. I, of course, am by no means the only one who sees it.
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

  6. #396
    Sporadic insanity normal.


    The Mark's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Pennsylvania
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 09:55 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    19,736

    re: Our civilisation is pathetic. [W:459]

    Quote Originally Posted by Maximus Zeebra View Post
    Thats the question, isnt it?

    Who makes the laws in the EU? We don't really have a government at that level, but we do have many laws, regulation and cooperation at that level. I realize we have mechanisms like the parliament and the executive commission. But that is way short of a government. Personally i think we could get rid of the commission as well.

    We then have the council where all the nations come together and cooperate. We have the safe mechanism in the European parliament. Right, we do need to commission to draft in a non political way, and enforce in a non partial way. hmm.

    Well. the European Union is interesting to look at in this regard.

    Perhaps we can do something completely new. After all, we just need a few basic laws, human rights etc.

    interesting conundrum.
    The problem is that, at the core, a governmental system relies on humans to make decisions

    Whether it be a dictator setting policy, or a legislative body discussing and setting policy, it as an absolute guarantee that there WILL be mistakes, and unforeseen consequences.

    Any reasonable system must take this into account, and provide checks and controls to prevent changes which would cause harm, however well-meaning. Of course no one can agree on exactly what that means....

    I think one of the issues we have today is that language and words are losing their meaning – How is a person to know what a politician or leader is talking about if the words used do not have a concrete meaning? Perhaps this is just me...
    Education.

    Sometimes I think we're alone. Sometimes I think we're not. In either case, the thought is staggering. ~ R. Buckminster Fuller

  7. #397
    Human 2.0
    Maximus Zeebra's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Western Europe
    Last Seen
    09-07-17 @ 10:19 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    6,568

    re: Our civilisation is pathetic. [W:459]

    Quote Originally Posted by molten_dragon View Post
    No, it's quite true. We're pretty much all bags of **** that only care about ourselves and our close friends and family when you get right down to it. We simply aren't built to consider things on a global scale. Pretty much everyone is equally guilty of it. There are exceptions, but they're few and far between.

    We do have the power to influence the world, we just don't care to. If things are okay for us and the people close to us, who cares if a bunch of people I've never met thousands of miles away are starving to death. Sure, it's sad, but we're not going to give up anything of ours to change it..
    I think you are completely wrong. We aren't borne like that. It can be different. Its just that our civilisation and society had made us like that, and many people are not like that. Lots of people care about what is close to them AND the world around them.


    Quote Originally Posted by molten_dragon View Post
    I'm not convinced of that at all. In the very long term things might be better for everyone, but in the short to mid term, things would need to get a lot crappier for those who are well off now, to make it better for those who are in bad shape.

    The average GDP per capita for the US is roughly $50,000. Much of Europe is in the $40,000-$60,000 range. The average world GDP per capita is around $10,000. So a lot of people are getting by on a lot less than that. If we averaged it all and made everything equal for everyone in the world, it would mean the average person in the developed world would have to give up 75%-85% of what they have. And you can say 'Oh, but it's just stuff you don't need', but that doesn't really cover it (and isn't really true). It would mean dramatically lowering healthcare standards in most of the developed world, living in tiny houses, probably being unable to own a car (how exactly will we get to work?), owning fewer clothes (we can't all walk around naked, and clothes wear out), not being able to afford as varied a diet, no access to higher education for most people, etc. etc. etc. It would have a dramatic negative impact on the quality of life for most people in the developed world. And you think they're just going to give that up so some stranger can have clean water and a bowl of rice? Dream on.

    But don't let me stop you. If you think it's so important, why don't you give up that computer and internet service you're using to post here (after all, that's just junk you don't need) and use the money to raise the standard of living for some stranger in the Congo.

    I tried to read that, but at soon as you started talking about GDP it was really difficult and uninteresting to proceed. Not because of what or how you wrote it, but because I don't believe in GDP. GDP is just a figure, and as a measurement of important things it deeply flawed. Actually the focus on GDP is one of the reasons our whole economic model is so damn flawed, which again is one of the reasons for much of the suffering in this world.

    Perhaps I can try to explain what I mean. I will try to work with a very simple example here:

    quality vs quantity.
    Let's imagine todays market for laptops. Most people have to exchange those quite often, either because they get broken, or because they stop working well.

    I happen to think that todays method of constructing laptops is deeply flawed. It leads to poor quality builds. I also happen to think the operating system on most laptops is extremely bad. Actually so bad that it ruins laptops in many case. Burn their processor and spoil it, or overheat and melt parts of or components on the motherboard. Often it melts to fan itself, which causes further problems. Laptops are made with bad material and built in a way that will almost guarantee that they break easily. They also lack much technology that we have available today which would greatly enhance their quality.

    John Doe pays $1000 for his laptop. 2 or 3 years later he buys another one, and so it goes.

    This all contributes to corporate revenue and profits ofcourse.

    Non existant company makes a super solid laptop and put a super great operating system on it, and gives it a 10 year warranty. It also includes features that are not normally available on other laptops.

    John Cash pays $2500 for his laptop. After 10 years he still has it. His operating system is continuously developing, increasing its efficiency and so making his computer more powerful. He doesnt need a new laptop! The quality build has assured his laptop has not broken. Sure, his specifications are now not as good as the newest laptops. But his operating system is now so advanced that he can do the same things at the same speed that modern laptops with bloated and inefficient software can. John Cash keeps his laptop for another 5 years.


    You see. John Cash and John Doe both get to use their laptop for their intended purpose. John Doe always buys new ones while John Cash rarely buys a new one. John Doe puts his laptop in the trash after 3 years. He spends $5000 on new laptops over a time period of 15 years. He constantly need a new operating system, because his operating system company needs to make money. So they release new systems all the time and force everyone over to it, and all software must move over, otherwise it will not be compatible. John Cash operating system is continuously developed, so is the software for it. The software is always compatible due to the nature of the system.

    Etc etc.

    The point is that John Doe increases the GDP, while John Cash decreases the GDP. Even though John Cash has a superior product and reduces waste. John Cash is also very happy, because he does not have to change operating system all the time and repurchase new software all the time.

    Even though these people have everything they need and a perfectly happy about it. John Cash example would lower GDP even though it would not lower living standard/quality. It would maybe even increase it as there would be less trash around.


    I really don't believe in GDP. I know lots of people are obsessed with it.

    This example is ofcourse very simple and stupid. But if you gave me time I could make a million examples that would be good ones. In general it is the model of quality vs the model of quantity. Thats what ot boils down to. A model of quality would reduce GDP, although living standards would probably be far higher.

    I think its far more interesting for humanity to figure out what we can do with what we already have. To maximize the potential of current technology instead of always just buying incrementally better products all the time. For computers and operating systems, this model is particularily interesting in that operating systems can improve the overall quality while using the same hardware.


    I give to the world food program actually. When you mention that.. I don't believe in the model of dropping food. But now we do not have any alternative to that. We could educate them to grow their own agricultural industry instead, but we dont. So, since I have more than enough for what I need, I would find it silly not to support someone who have nothing.
    Europe is illegally occupied by the US

  8. #398
    Human 2.0
    Maximus Zeebra's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Western Europe
    Last Seen
    09-07-17 @ 10:19 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    6,568

    re: Our civilisation is pathetic. [W:459]

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    I boiled your topic down to what you're actually saying, using your own words. You yourself attributed everything bad you said to the US and then merely mentioned that Europe is headed that way.

    I mean, the whole thing is childish bull****, as nearly 400 posts in the thread have already told you. But sorry, dude, your posts are one-track and singular in topic. They all boil down to the same thing. I, of course, am by no means the only one who sees it.
    Yes, I am critical of the US, because of their government. So what? I am also critical of Europe, because we are heading the same way. I am critical of the west in general, because we are doing things in such a wrong way at the moment. Do you think that is wrong?

    I also think our civilisation is pathetic, because I try to look objectively at it. If you think its not pathetic, then you are not really looking. Personally, I think we are far better than this and I think we are so pathetic because we are being made so pathetic by our monsterously corrupt and deeply flawed system of governance.



    Ps. I'd be damned if I want to give away my inner child, I'd be damned if I gave up hope and I'd be stupid if I didn't believe in a better world.
    Last edited by Maximus Zeebra; 10-02-13 at 09:55 PM.
    Europe is illegally occupied by the US

  9. #399
    Anti-Hypocrite
    molten_dragon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Southeast Michigan
    Last Seen
    Today @ 05:56 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Slightly Liberal
    Posts
    9,351

    re: Our civilisation is pathetic. [W:459]

    Quote Originally Posted by Maximus Zeebra View Post
    I think you are completely wrong. We aren't borne like that. It can be different. Its just that our civilisation and society had made us like that, and many people are not like that. Lots of people care about what is close to them AND the world around them.
    Yeah, we kind of are born like that. Sure, some of it is societal, but our animal hindbrain certainly doesn't care about people on the other side of the planet. Not everything we do is learned from society and culture. Our instincts don't rule us, and we can override them if we want to, but they certainly shape our behavior. And sure, there are plenty of people who care about the wider world (or say they do at least), but if you made them chose between something close to them and the wider world, you know which they'd chose as well as I do. People are perfectly willing to help out others and care about the wider world around them, but mostly only when it doesn't mean they have to sacrifice anything important.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maximus Zeebra View Post
    I tried to read that, but at soon as you started talking about GDP it was really difficult and uninteresting to proceed. Not because of what or how you wrote it, but because I don't believe in GDP. GDP is just a figure, and as a measurement of important things it deeply flawed. Actually the focus on GDP is one of the reasons our whole economic model is so damn flawed, which again is one of the reasons for much of the suffering in this world.


    Perhaps I can try to explain what I mean. I will try to work with a very simple example here:

    quality vs quantity.
    Let's imagine todays market for laptops. Most people have to exchange those quite often, either because they get broken, or because they stop working well.

    I happen to think that todays method of constructing laptops is deeply flawed. It leads to poor quality builds. I also happen to think the operating system on most laptops is extremely bad. Actually so bad that it ruins laptops in many case. Burn their processor and spoil it, or overheat and melt parts of or components on the motherboard. Often it melts to fan itself, which causes further problems. Laptops are made with bad material and built in a way that will almost guarantee that they break easily. They also lack much technology that we have available today which would greatly enhance their quality.

    John Doe pays $1000 for his laptop. 2 or 3 years later he buys another one, and so it goes.

    This all contributes to corporate revenue and profits ofcourse.

    Non existant company makes a super solid laptop and put a super great operating system on it, and gives it a 10 year warranty. It also includes features that are not normally available on other laptops.

    John Cash pays $2500 for his laptop. After 10 years he still has it. His operating system is continuously developing, increasing its efficiency and so making his computer more powerful. He doesnt need a new laptop! The quality build has assured his laptop has not broken. Sure, his specifications are now not as good as the newest laptops. But his operating system is now so advanced that he can do the same things at the same speed that modern laptops with bloated and inefficient software can. John Cash keeps his laptop for another 5 years.


    You see. John Cash and John Doe both get to use their laptop for their intended purpose. John Doe always buys new ones while John Cash rarely buys a new one. John Doe puts his laptop in the trash after 3 years. He spends $5000 on new laptops over a time period of 15 years. He constantly need a new operating system, because his operating system company needs to make money. So they release new systems all the time and force everyone over to it, and all software must move over, otherwise it will not be compatible. John Cash operating system is continuously developed, so is the software for it. The software is always compatible due to the nature of the system.

    Etc etc.

    The point is that John Doe increases the GDP, while John Cash decreases the GDP. Even though John Cash has a superior product and reduces waste. John Cash is also very happy, because he does not have to change operating system all the time and repurchase new software all the time.

    Even though these people have everything they need and a perfectly happy about it. John Cash example would lower GDP even though it would not lower living standard/quality. It would maybe even increase it as there would be less trash around.


    I really don't believe in GDP. I know lots of people are obsessed with it.

    This example is ofcourse very simple and stupid. But if you gave me time I could make a million examples that would be good ones. In general it is the model of quality vs the model of quantity. Thats what ot boils down to. A model of quality would reduce GDP, although living standards would probably be far higher.

    I think its far more interesting for humanity to figure out what we can do with what we already have. To maximize the potential of current technology instead of always just buying incrementally better products all the time. For computers and operating systems, this model is particularily interesting in that operating systems can improve the overall quality while using the same hardware.
    I tried to read that, but I lost interest as soon as you pointed out that you hadn't really paid attention to what I posted. Not because of what or how you wrote it, but because I don't believe in reading and responding to what someone else wrote when they won't do me the common courtesy of doing the same.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maximus Zeebra View Post
    I give to the world food program actually. When you mention that.. I don't believe in the model of dropping food. But now we do not have any alternative to that. We could educate them to grow their own agricultural industry instead, but we dont. So, since I have more than enough for what I need, I would find it silly not to support someone who have nothing.
    Exactly what I pointed out earlier. You're willing to help out others as long as it means you don't have to sacrifice anything you want. You could give up more than you have and still meet the bare necessities. As I pointed out, you don't really need a computer or internet service (which you referred to as 'junk we don't need'), but you haven't given them up so you can help others more. I'm sure you have other luxuries you could give up to help others as well, but you don't.

    You're just a hypocrite asking others to do something you aren't willing to do yourself.
    If you build a man a fire, he'll be warm for a day.

    If you set a man on fire, he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

  10. #400
    Sage
    Bodhisattva's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    New Zealand
    Last Seen
    Today @ 02:17 AM
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    63,861

    re: Our civilisation is pathetic. [W:459]

    Quote Originally Posted by Maximus Zeebra View Post
    Do you agree with the statement (above)?

    Take your head out of the sand and vote.
    Anti-USA bashing again... nothing ever changes.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have pooped in public, even in public neighborhoods.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

Page 40 of 53 FirstFirst ... 30383940414250 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •