View Poll Results: Is our civilisation pathetic?

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Thread: Our civilisation is pathetic. [W:459]

  1. #301
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    re: Our civilisation is pathetic. [W:459]

    Quote Originally Posted by Visbek View Post
    And yet, you openly insult people who don't agree with you. h'm
    I don't! Or at least not purposefully. I do however try to insult people who try to insult me here and are generally obnoxious. I know I shouldn't, I should rather pity them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Visbek View Post
    No, what I believe is that the world has actually improved, measurably and significantly so. There is room for more improvement.
    True in my opinion.


    Quote Originally Posted by Visbek View Post
    However, certain things (like deception) will never go away.
    Not true in my opinion. You have a low view on human beings. What makes you think we cannot have a society where deception is obsolete? Not necessary that is.

    Deception, corruption, lies etc are just behaviours which are a result of the society and civilisation they exist in.



    Quote Originally Posted by Visbek View Post
    So, that's a "no" on your having kids then.
    True. And looking at how the world is, I don't know if I want any.


    Quote Originally Posted by Visbek View Post
    Parents constantly tell their kids not to lie. Success rate at eliminating lying? 0%. The will and ability to deceive is just a part of human nature, and you will not get people to behave the way you want them to behave if you don't understand human nature.
    What if you removed all the possible reasons they would want to lie in the first place?

    Why do they lie?

    I am not an expert on human nature, but I have ideas about how it works.



    Quote Originally Posted by Visbek View Post
    1) Monkeys are quite intelligent.
    I knew you would say that actually.

    Quote Originally Posted by Visbek View Post
    2) I'm saying that you cannot stop humans from lying. Nor have you suggested any plan to do so.
    What is the root cause of lies? If you can answer that, then I can answer your question.

    I don't believe human nature is the root cause of lies. Would a baby lie?


    Quote Originally Posted by Visbek View Post
    So they can be free, but only if they restrict their behavior per your personal preferences? That doesn't sound like "freedom" to me.
    I wouldn't restrict them at all. That is why my question is, if I want children at all in todays society. Because you have to restrict them. A LOT.

    I would want to guide them instead, try to influence them. If they did not want to listen. So be it. But raising kids in this way is not possible in todays society. We prevent our kids from doing what they want. For example. We say "be careful" if the child clims somewhere. We yell at them "don't do that" if they do something YOU think is risky. We do lots of things like that to restrict children, and as a result they get weak.


    Quote Originally Posted by Visbek View Post
    You're missing the point. I am not saying that there are definitive groups, in fact I stated that the criteria for group membership is flexible. I'm pointing out how human beings have an innate propensity to divide themselves up to "us and them." E.g. in the Robbers Cave experiment, a group of kids with highly similar backgrounds were divided into two groups. The counselors were able to quickly guide the kids into forming group identities, and pit the two groups against one another; they were equally successful at unifying the two groups. I.e. you can change the content of the groups, but you cannot wipe out the idea of "group membership" altogether.

    This is almost certainly an evolutionary adaptation and a requirement for living in complex social groups. Chimpanzees, for example, also divide themselves up into troops, and within a troop they have complex subgroups -- e.g. they recognize families, they make alliances, they have a hierarchy based on competition, and so forth.
    I didn't miss your point at all. I was actually thinking about exactly what you write now when i wrote my answer. I just dont agree we have to behave like monkeys if our society is so good that we do not have to. Why would we need to form groups if we had nothing to disagree about? Furthermore, a mature and open society would prevent those things from ever becoming relevant. It's another example of education actually. More so tolerance. Tolerance can come about from education, freedom and a good society.


    Quote Originally Posted by Visbek View Post
    And how does this happen again? Especially since in such a world, a handful of brutes can easily take control of those who are busy hugging puppies.

    Not if we had a good system where the system is so good, that it prevents these things from ever becoming a problem. In today's society, we do not build a society to prevent bad thing, we just wait for them to happen and then act.

    Its like climbing Mount Everest with no plan. The better the plan is, the greater the chance of success. No plan and disaster is inevitable.



    Quote Originally Posted by Visbek View Post
    You might want to add The Selfish Gene to your reading list, as Dawkins discusses the idea of evolutionary survival strategies, and how it's rare that one tactic will work universally.
    I don't have enough information about this to respond either way. But I can imagine, the more we develop and progress, the more irrelevant that point becomes.



    Quote Originally Posted by Visbek View Post
    Yep.

    There are about 6 billion people on the planet, who routinely divide themselves into groups and have genuine conflicts of interests. If you're going to say that it is easy to build a better world, then let's hear how it should be done.
    ok, to generalise first. In a society where everyone have what they need, where everyone is completely free to live life as they want (within reasonable laws), where everyone is happy, there would be far more social harmony. Why would anyone need to divide themselves into groups in such a society?

    Lets make that more extreme. In a parfect society, where everyone is completely happy and in total harmony. Why would anyone want to divide into opposing groups?

    What is the reason people divide into groups now?




    Quote Originally Posted by Visbek View Post

    Of course I do. Granted, my power is shared with around 300 million of my fellow citizens. But I can vote, I can advocate, I can discuss, I can protest, I can bring lawsuits, I can organize. If I am sufficiently motivated, I can join the political class.
    When did you ever vote on anything significant? When did you ever vote on your countries policies?

    Who can join the political class? who can become president?

    In Europe, anyone who wants any significant political influence needs to go through the party system. This means he can only gain influence there if he adopts the party policies, more or less. In most cases it takes a lifetime to even reach any important political role. In the US you need tons of money in addition.

    You don't share any power with your fellow citisens. You have no power at all. You can only select one of two parties, thats just double as good as the Chinese you complain about, and from European perspective, those two parties are almost identical. So no matter which one you vote for, you pretty much get the same stuff anyways, the policies the politicians decide. George W. Bush is an example of that. Many people strongly disliked him and his policies. They thought they could get change if they voted Barrack Obama, but things continued the exact same direction, just even worse.
    Congress has no power anymore, all power is being gathered in very few hands. So not even those who are suppose to represent you does. And if they could, they still don't care!

    There are maybe a handful of people in congress thar actually care, and they have absolutely no influence in the end.

    Your democratic system is dead! Our democratic system is dead. Democracy turns into tyrrany. Even if you had a democratic system that worked, you are still not free to roam outside the parameters of the "tyrranical system".



    Quote Originally Posted by Visbek View Post
    The problem is that you know nothing of my background, nothing about the political ideas I've been exposed to, and your only criteria is whether or not someone agrees with you.
    That was exactly my point, when you started claiming things about me.


    Quote Originally Posted by Visbek View Post
    And yes, if you're going to say "you are a sheep," that implies that you are not -- and yet, there is (per your own stipulation) nothing different between you and I. So how did you become so enlightened?
    I hope you are not. I am not. At best I am a black sheep.

    What makes me different, personally, I can say, I analyse things as they come in, and instead of buying the conlusions of the people who feed me that information, I draw my own conclusions, based on ALL the evidence. Not just one piece, but everything. I never take any sides, which most people in the west do, which greatly hurts their open mindedness. I listen to anything without prejudice and make up my opinion later on. Actually, my type of personality has for habit to not believe anything unless it is a clear and obvious truth, and we are sceptical towards everything. We gather facts and only draw conclusions when facts are overwhelmingly clear and undoubtfully true.

    That is why I am not a sheep, why I don't believe in this system.

    Quote Originally Posted by Visbek View Post
    The US is getting better about teaching kids the benefits of exercise and eating healthy, and there is a lot of discussion of it in the media. It's having a small effect.
    Happy to hear that! Its desperately needed, not only in the US.
    I tend to have the belief that at later stages of education, the US generally have better sports programs than we do in Europe.


    Quote Originally Posted by Visbek View Post
    No one really knows what causes obesity, thus it is not a simple process to figure out why it's happening, or how to stop it.
    Ooh yes they do. Its quite obvious actually. Bad diet and lack of movement/exercise. That is the reason of obesity. Genes enhance that problem.

    You have to adapt your eating habits and exercise to fit your genetic profile to optimise you health.
    Europe is illegally occupied by the US

  2. #302
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    re: Our civilisation is pathetic. [W:459]

    Quote Originally Posted by Maximus Zeebra View Post
    No you don't. You do what the system allows you.
    So you live in an autocratic nation, Max ?
    One of the few, today, Max.....and, we do make out own autotcracy....to an extent...

  3. #303
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    re: Our civilisation is pathetic. [W:459]

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    A school is not ones parents and jogging doesn't cost anything. If a kid does not have physical activity as part of their day, and a decent diet, then the parents are ****bags and nothing will change that.

    Stop relying on the government to do everything. Take some personal responsibility.
    Ok, lets stop havig education then.

    I am not talking about relying on the government, I am talking about relying on good education.

    In your view, relative to what you express, its the parents responsibility to teach the kids mathematics.



    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    Oh, please. I've done things most only dream of. The system never gave me anything, I had to work for my accomplishments. Perhaps everything you've ever had was handed to you by the government, but most people DO something.
    Yes. You had to work within the parameters the system allow you.
    You have no idea what I am talking about.

    Ps. I don't live off the government.
    Europe is illegally occupied by the US

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    re: Our civilisation is pathetic. [W:459]

    Quote Originally Posted by Muhammed View Post
    So what do you steal?
    I don't believe in stealing.
    Europe is illegally occupied by the US

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    re: Our civilisation is pathetic. [W:459]

    Quote Originally Posted by FederalRepublic View Post
    True. It's also pretty silly to assume that it's possible for everyone on earth to be happy and compliant with your wishes at all times.
    I never said that.
    Europe is illegally occupied by the US

  6. #306
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    re: Our civilisation is pathetic. [W:459]

    Quote Originally Posted by earthworm View Post
    So you live in an autocratic nation, Max ?
    One of the few, today, Max.....and, we do make out own autotcracy....to an extent...
    Do you live in an anarchy with no system at all?
    Europe is illegally occupied by the US

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    re: Our civilisation is pathetic. [W:459]

    Quote Originally Posted by Maximus Zeebra View Post
    I don't! Or at least not purposefully. I do however try to insult people who try to insult me here and are generally obnoxious. I know I shouldn't, I should rather pity them.
    NO, Max, rise above this ! And save your pity.


    True in my opinion.




    Not true in my opinion. You have a low view on human beings. What makes you think we cannot have a society where deception is obsolete? Not necessary that is.

    Deception, corruption, lies etc are just behaviors which are a result of the society and civilization they exist in.
    Walk among the people, get to know them....one of Gandhi's tricks, as I recall....also Jesus......




    True. And looking at how the world is, I don't know if I want any.




    What if you removed all the possible reasons they would want to lie in the first place?

    Why do they lie?
    fear
    I am not an expert on human nature, but I have ideas about how it works.





    I knew you would say that actually.



    What is the root cause of lies? If you can answer that, then I can answer your question.

    I don't believe human nature is the root cause of lies. Would a baby lie?




    I wouldn't restrict them at all. That is why my question is, if I want children at all in todays society. Because you have to restrict them. A LOT.Totally untrue. Not true

    I would want to guide them instead, try to influence them. If they did not want to listen. So be it. But raising kids in this way is not possible in todays society. We prevent our kids from doing what they want. For example. We say "be careful" if the child climbs somewhere. We yell at them "don't do that" if they do something YOU think is risky. We do lots of things like that to restrict children, and as a result they get weak. No, they tire of our never ending "caring" of them, but when they find out otherwise, then things change.




    I didn't miss your point at all. I was actually thinking about exactly what you write now when i wrote my answer. I just dont agree we have to behave like monkeys if our society is so good that we do not have to. Why would we need to form groups if we had nothing to disagree about? Furthermore, a mature and open society would prevent those things from ever becoming relevant. It's another example of education actually. More so tolerance. Tolerance can come about from education, freedom and a good society.





    Not if we had a good system where the system is so good, that it prevents these things from ever becoming a problem. In today's society, we do not build a society to prevent bad thing, we just wait for them to happen and then act.

    Its like climbing Mount Everest with no plan. The better the plan is, the greater the chance of success. No plan and disaster is inevitable.





    I don't have enough information about this to respond either way. But I can imagine, the more we develop and progress, the more irrelevant that point becomes.





    ok, to generalize first. In a society where everyone have what they need, where everyone is completely free to live life as they want (within reasonable laws), where everyone is happy, there would be far more social harmony. Why would anyone need to divide themselves into groups in such a society?

    Lets make that more extreme. In a perfect society, where everyone is completely happy and in total harmony. Why would anyone want to divide into opposing groups?

    What is the reason people divide into groups now?






    When did you ever vote on anything significant? When did you ever vote on your countries policies?

    Who can join the political class? who can become president?

    In Europe, anyone who wants any significant political influence needs to go through the party system. This means he can only gain influence there if he adopts the party policies, more or less. In most cases it takes a lifetime to even reach any important political role. In the US you need tons of money in addition.

    You don't share any power with your fellow citizens. You have no power at all. You can only select one of two parties, thats just double as good as the Chinese you complain about, and from European perspective, those two parties are almost identical. So no matter which one you vote for, you pretty much get the same stuff anyways, the policies the politicians decide. George W. Bush is an example of that. Many people strongly disliked him and his policies. They thought they could get change if they voted Barrack Obama, but things continued the exact same direction, just even worse.
    Congress has no power anymore, all power is being gathered in very few hands. So not even those who are suppose to represent you does. And if they could, they still don't care!

    There are maybe a handful of people in congress that actually care, and they have absolutely no influence in the end.

    Your democratic system is dead! Our democratic system is dead. Democracy turns into tyranny. Even if you had a democratic system that worked, you are still not free to roam outside the parameters of the "tyrannical system".





    That was exactly my point, when you started claiming things about me.




    I hope you are not. I am not. At best I am a black sheep.

    What makes me different, personally, I can say, I analyze things as they come in, and instead of buying the conclusions of the people who feed me that information, I draw my own conclusions, based on ALL the evidence. Not just one piece, but everything. I never take any sides, which most people in the west do, which greatly hurts their open mindedness. I listen to anything without prejudice and make up my opinion later on. Actually, my type of personality has for habit to not believe anything unless it is a clear and obvious truth, and we are skeptical toward everything. We gather facts and only draw conclusions when facts are overwhelmingly clear and undoubtedly true.

    That is why I am not a sheep, why I don't believe in this system.



    Happy to hear that! Its desperately needed, not only in the US.
    I tend to have the belief that at later stages of education, the US generally have better sports programs than we do in Europe.




    Ooh yes they do. Its quite obvious actually. Bad diet and lack of movement/exercise. That is the reason of obesity. Genes enhance that problem.

    You have to adapt your eating habits and exercise to fit your genetic profile to optimize you health.
    Whew....50 spell check changes......
    Ye be an interesting character, Max.

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    re: Our civilisation is pathetic. [W:459]

    Quote Originally Posted by Maximus Zeebra View Post
    I don't believe in stealing.
    And why should we believe you? Experience tells me that self-righteous accusers like you are usually projecting your own guilt onto others.

    Yep, everybody steals for living...except for you. 'Cause you're such an angel. Right?

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    re: Our civilisation is pathetic. [W:459]

    Quote Originally Posted by Maximus Zeebra View Post
    I never said that.
    I'm pretty sure you did.

  10. #310
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    re: Our civilisation is pathetic. [W:459]

    Quote Originally Posted by Maximus Zeebra View Post
    Besides, you are a great example of why the government own your guts.
    You don't have the slightest clue what you're talking about.
    I love the NSA. It's like having a secret fan-base you will never see, but they're there, watching everything you write and it makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside knowing that I may be some person's only form of unconstitutional entertainment one night.

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