View Poll Results: Is our civilisation pathetic?

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  • Yes

    10 16.13%
  • No

    52 83.87%
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Thread: Our civilisation is pathetic. [W:459]

  1. #281
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    re: Our civilisation is pathetic. [W:459]

    Quote Originally Posted by Maximus Zeebra View Post
    That it's open to everyone.


    I agree, but it is a good first step. The US just need to end the closed door policy and the huge bills to private individuals to attend to their health.
    Open, do you mean universal healthcare? You need to be more specific because you are using terms that are not interchangeable.

    And how is it a good first step?

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    re: Our civilisation is pathetic. [W:459]

    Quote Originally Posted by Maximus Zeebra View Post
    I agree, but it is a good first step. The US just need to end the closed door policy and the huge bills to private individuals to attend to their health.
    If we give people free scripts, they'll just end up posting on the internet and annoying everyone with their insanity.

  3. #283
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    re: Our civilisation is pathetic. [W:459]

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisL View Post
    It is, but it's unrealistic to think everyone or even most people would. In a case of anarchy too, those who do survive are the ones who care the least usually. They are the ones willing to go to extremes to get what they want obviously. Especially those who are desperate.
    The problem with anarchy is not so much that people will harm each other, but that it offers up a vacuum that comes about from the need of many people to be lead by others and or the desire to lead. People are hierarchical in nature and anarchy goes against this in the most blatant of ways. While I'm not sure I would suspect that these issues relating to leadership only arose at a certain threshold in our history and that government is just the result of it.

    Of course, no system is really stable in the conditions it lays out and all systems go towards a general path towards their destruction. Government just seems to be a necessary step towards it.

    As for people harming each other though, to the most part people would work together and take part in activities that better their condition. While some people will harm others the extent of that is largely up to the individual people like it is with any other system.
    Last edited by Henrin; 10-01-13 at 12:01 PM.

  4. #284
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    re: Our civilisation is pathetic. [W:459]

    Quote Originally Posted by Maximus Zeebra View Post
    Wow, wohooo.. We have come so far..
    Yes, we have.

    Daily life is safer; fewer people are killed or harmed by wars. Slavery, which was common throughout most of world history, has been all but completely eradicated. The percentage of deaths in warfare in pre-state societies is estimated to be very high (around 20%), whereas 20th century world estimates are well below 5%. The abandonment of autocracies, the rise of the rule of law, organized police, and increases in affluence are all likely contributors to a safer world.

    And a lot of that progress didn't happen because of wars, but in spite of them. We didn't develop the goal of an accountable government because one group of soldiers killed another group, it was because of the ideas of Enlightenment philosophers.


    I don't agree with that assessment. I guess I have a higher view of and hope for humanity than you do.
    I'm not the one proclaiming that modern civilization is "pathetic." It looks to me like you're the pessimist here.

    It's also very clear that, for example, deception is not going away. Anyone who has kids knows that it doesn't take long for the kid to attempt lying to the parents -- or that parents frequently feel compelled to lie to their children. Deception is a common tactic, and one that works fairly well, observed all throughout the animal kingdom. There's no way you can stop people from lying, unless you develop a completely oppressive and draconian society.

    I.e. if you're going to allow people to be free, you have to accept that people are going to do things you don't like.


    I think that is an essential next step for humanity. To mature and outgrow all of those pity problems.
    Again, we are actually improving, because of societal steps.

    You also have to realize that while humans do respond to social conditions, we are also hard-wired in many respects. E.g. you cannot talk people out of dividing into "us and them." While the criteria is flexible, the desire to divide social groups into "in-group" and "out-group" is almost certainly a hard-wired human response.


    We can easily eradicate those things if we want.
    Uh huh. I notice you're long on criticism, short on actual policies. Care to explain how you convince everyone to hug and distribute puppies all day long?



    It is a fantasy yes, because the political class who own all of you, even your ideas, they seem to not want that.
    The political class doesn't "own" us. I don't believe that's the case even for a lot of people I disagree with politically.

    Nor do you have any sort of special privileged access to True Freedom, that no one else has. You just have a rhetorical flourish that you can invoke when you are unable to prove your assertions.


    Perhaps I will take you up on that.
    Here's a transcript of a lecture he did, based on his work. It's a much faster read than the book.

    A History of Violence Edge Master Class 2011 | Edge.org

  5. #285
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    re: Our civilisation is pathetic. [W:459]

    Quote Originally Posted by Rainman05 View Post
    Open, do you mean universal healthcare? You need to be more specific because you are using terms that are not interchangeable.

    And how is it a good first step?
    I don't know. Like we have it in Europe, so yes, I suppose that is called universal healthcare.
    Europe is illegally occupied by the US

  6. #286
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    re: Our civilisation is pathetic. [W:459]

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    If we give people free scripts, they'll just end up posting on the internet and annoying everyone with their insanity.
    Yeah, exactly, that is what you are doing. I haven't seen anything interesting coming from you here.

    So, there is an unsubcribe button for those that are so far inside he box that they will never come out.
    Europe is illegally occupied by the US

  7. #287
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    re: Our civilisation is pathetic. [W:459]

    Quote Originally Posted by Maximus Zeebra View Post
    Yeah, exactly, that is what you are doing. I haven't seen anything interesting coming from you here.

    So, there is an unsubcribe button for those that are so far inside he box that they will never come out.
    It's gonna take you weeks to figure out that anarchy is stupid. I'm so waiting for that morsel of wisdom.

    You're not the boss of me. I do what I want.

  8. #288
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    re: Our civilisation is pathetic. [W:459]

    Quote Originally Posted by Visbek View Post
    I'm not the one proclaiming that modern civilization is "pathetic." It looks to me like you're the pessimist here.
    Nah, I am the one who believes in a better world. I have high hopes and view on humankind.

    You think our current pathetic civilisation is great or you have no hope in human kind to do any better than we are. Which is tragic and clearly an example of someone who have no faith in humanity.

    I have faith in humanity, thats why I think we can do a lot better than we are.

    Quote Originally Posted by Visbek View Post
    It's also very clear that, for example, deception is not going away. Anyone who has kids knows that it doesn't take long for the kid to attempt lying to the parents -- or that parents frequently feel compelled to lie to their children.
    That is a result of their environment, not their human nature. It doesn't have to be that way. But usually kids are afraid of parents if they do something wrong, and are compelled to use a construction of our civilisation to get out of that, lying.

    Quote Originally Posted by Visbek View Post
    Deception is a common tactic, and one that works fairly well, observed all throughout the animal kingdom. There's no way you can stop people from lying, unless you develop a completely oppressive and draconian society.
    Are you saying we are are stupid as monkeys? That we cannot do better? Thats a dark view on humanity that I do not share.

    Quote Originally Posted by Visbek View Post
    I.e. if you're going to allow people to be free, you have to accept that people are going to do things you don't like.
    Thats not up to me, its up to all of us. Personally, I want my kids to grow up in a free world where they can become anything that they want.

    I also want them to live in an open society where parents don't have to lie to them or make them afraid. Where they are free to explore things their own way with parental guidance.


    Quote Originally Posted by Visbek View Post
    Again, we are actually improving, because of societal steps.

    You also have to realize that while humans do respond to social conditions, we are also hard-wired in many respects. E.g. you cannot talk people out of dividing into "us and them." While the criteria is flexible, the desire to divide social groups into "in-group" and "out-group" is almost certainly a hard-wired human response.
    We are all us. We live on the same planet, there is no us and them. Its a social construct, not a human trait. If everyone grew up in an open world where they have everything they need we would have far more social harmony. It is a place where everyone would automatically be the friend of everyone else, because it makes no sense not to be.

    I believe a harmonious society is possible and very realistic. But then again I have high faith in humans and believe they are inherently good, but that our social construct or civilisation turns many of them bad.


    Quote Originally Posted by Visbek View Post
    Uh huh. I notice you're long on criticism, short on actual policies. Care to explain how you convince everyone to hug and distribute puppies all day long?
    I wasnt trying to come up with practical examples. Are you asking for some?



    Quote Originally Posted by Visbek View Post
    The political class doesn't "own" us. I don't believe that's the case even for a lot of people I disagree with politically.
    They own the system. You have no influence on that systems, most people have no influence on that system and elections certainly have no influence on that system. You are just born into it and have to live in that system.

    Quote Originally Posted by Visbek View Post
    Nor do you have any sort of special privileged access to True Freedom, that no one else has. You just have a rhetorical flourish that you can invoke when you are unable to prove your assertions.
    Did I say I was free? I live in the same system as you, and I am equally trapped by it. I am probably more open minded than you though, which makes me more free to understanding true freedom.


    Quote Originally Posted by Visbek View Post
    Here's a transcript of a lecture he did, based on his work. It's a much faster read than the book.

    A History of Violence Edge Master Class 2011 | Edge.org
    I am going jogging now, 8km's. I will see after that

    Jogging is not only benefitial to me, but also to our society. They never teach such things in school. In particularily in the US. I am always very sorry when I hear you have such crazy obesity levels over there. I think our obesity levels over here are crazy, at about half of yours. So, I cook, eat healthy, do sports etc. All the things that they never put any real weight on in school, even though it is of the highest importance. School prepares you to work in the system, doesn't it?
    Europe is illegally occupied by the US

  9. #289
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    re: Our civilisation is pathetic. [W:459]

    Quote Originally Posted by Maximus Zeebra View Post
    Jogging is not only benefitial to me, but also to our society. They never teach such things in school.
    Yes, they do.

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    re: Our civilisation is pathetic. [W:459]

    Quote Originally Posted by shrubnose View Post
    Good.

    Stick around here and you will get a lot of that, whether you like it or not.
    Given that he started off with a heaping helping of it, I assumed he really did love it.

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