• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Is it Fair Play to Hold the Debt Ceiling Hostage?

Is it Fair Play to Hold the Debt Ceiling Hostage?

  • Total voters
    75
vesper said:
Have you conveniently forgotten that Baucus was one of the chief authors of Obamacare? And if he thinks it is a train wreck, then Hell, it's worse than what the Republicans are claiming!
Click to expand...

You realize that Baucus remains a strong supporter of the ACA and his 'train wreck' comment was really referring to Republicans stripping out any money for education and implementation?

I have a feeling you probably don't care and are doggedly refractory to facts though.

http://www.slate.com/blogs/weigel/2...istory_of_max_baucus_s_train_wreck_quote.html
 
Wiseone said:
Firstly, the minority party spends like just drunken sailors just as bad as the majority party.
Click to expand...

Exactly. That's why I didn't say Rep or Dem. If either party, as the minority is stupid enough to allow the other party to simply spend wildly without any controls, they're idiots.

Wiseone said:
Secondly, the government should start actually fiscally responsible right now which requires reasonable behavior from both the Republicans and the Democrats.
Click to expand...

Definitely. On that we will fully agree.

Wiseone said:
Lastly, being in debt for a nation state is not fiscally irresponsible in and of itself, sovereign debt is a major source of market stability as well as a means for a country to invest in itself. That's not to say a country can borrow, borrow, borrow without any regard to its ability to repay but some borrowing is good and desirable, the issue comes when you become like Greece where they borrowed so much money that their required GDP growth would have to have been in the double digits in order for enough government revenue to be generated from taxes for the government to pay its debts. Then of course the recession hit which made it even worse, the US is not anywhere near that point it has every economic means to repay its debts so long as the government is willing to honor them.
Click to expand...

I will disagree with the idea that being in this level of debt is not fiscal irresponsibility. I'm no economist, by any stretch of the imagination, but when I have to go to the credit card company any beg for a spending limit extension every year or so, I'd suggest it's well past time to stop eating out every night and buying stuff I don't need on that credit card

Wiseone said:
Even if you want the government to lower its debts, which I do as well, the solution is not to simply stop paying them. You wouldn't advise someone who's in debt that simply stopping to pay his bills is a smart way to get out of debt would you? The US government must honor the debt's its made while reducing its future creation of debts
Click to expand...

You're right the solution isn't to stop paying the debts. The solution is to cut your spending so that you have the available cash to pay the debts and to maintain those services which are appropriate and Constitutionally mandated. When you are on the brink of not being able to cover the payments on your debt is not the time to start spending even more on things that you don't need, like Obamacare.
 
cpwill said:
Yup. And all budgets involve negotiation. The Administration wants to avoid that by refusing to have a budget. Too Bad, So Sad. Negotiate.
Click to expand...

Isn't it fun to imagine the Administration controls the entire US government? Isn't is so much simpler to pretend The House doesn't continually churn up chunks of knowingly impassable crap year after year?
 
cpwill said:
So was he also a terrorist?
Click to expand...

Given the popular propaganda from the left and using the same criteria they used to make accusations against the Republicans.... yes he was.
 
shrubnose said:
The GOP will pay a price for this. Don't take my word for this, just wait and see. This is a stupid thing for them to do. There is no upside for them with this stupidity. They will pay a price for this.
Click to expand...

They would pay an equal price for NOT doing it. Believe it or not there are still some of us who have Principles and who will not vote for those who fail to uphold theirs after having stated them.
 
Threegoofs said:
You realize that Baucus remains a strong supporter of the ACA
Click to expand...

Naturally. That's why he isn't even trying to run for reelection, and is getting out of the Senate before it can get applied to him.

and his 'train wreck' comment was really referring to Republicans stripping out any money for education and implementation?
Click to expand...

As I understand it he was referring to implementation all-together. However, think about the implications of claiming that a program is going to fall apart because enough people won't be draining money from it.
 
aberrant85 said:
Here's a rather frightening article about the repercussions of a credit default:

Wall Street to GOP: Are you nuts? - Ben White - POLITICO.com

"A brief shutdown would have some negative economic effects and could create political blowback on the GOP. But it would cause far less long-term damage than a default, which would likely send interest rates sky-rocketing, crush the stock market, devastate business and consumer confidence, and probably send the nation’s economy hurtling back into recession if not depression."

Let's say you and your brother go out for dinner. Your brother's behind the wheel. He wants Mexican, and you want Italian. You can't convince him and he can't convince you along the way. As you near a sharp curve, he keeps his foot on the gas and demands you give in to Mexican or he'll drive you both off the road.

All bias aside, is this not what House Republicans are doing? They had two years in the last Congress to push their ideas. They failed to pass their agenda through the Senate and signed into law by the President. They lost seats in the election. They've had another 9 months to argue their ideas, with even less to show for it. Now that there is no time for debate, they are demanding their ideas be enacted or they will allow a catastrophic default on the US Government's debt.

Is it out of bounds to demand this when you have not been able to convince your fellow Congressmen to support your ideas when there was time to debate them? Or is using the threat of disaster a legitimate political tool?
Click to expand...

How is it that the House/Republicans are threatening distaster by not agreeing with the Senate/Democrats, but the Senate/Democrats arent threatening disaster by doing the same thing?
 
Threegoofs said:
Isn't it fun to imagine the Administration controls the entire US government? Isn't is so much simpler to pretend The House doesn't continually churn up chunks of knowingly impassable crap year after year?
Click to expand...

:shrug: no one ever said that it does. However, it does control the White House and the Senate. That being said, I note that nothing you posted even addresses much less refutes what I pointed out: that budget negotiations involve actual negotiation, as well as compromise, and so the Administration has been trying to lock in the results of a year when it owned both houses of Congress and the White House in perpetuity by going outside the Budget Process to fund government. Now they are acting shocked to find people demanding compromise and negotiation, and climbing up on donkeys and tilting and windmill monsters, denouncing the very idea of negotiation. How Dare you think we would compromise?!? :roll:

It's childish and its cheap, but there are enough useful idiots in the media and low-information consumers that they will probably get away with it.
 
TurtleDude said:
Kick over the wall
cause governments to fall
how can you refuse it
Let fury have the hour
anger can be power
you know you can use it!
Click to expand...

Don't poop where you eat.
 
Kobie said:
"Enacting the provisions" is not the same as claiming the entire bill is a "train wreck." Learn to read. Implementation of the law and the law itself, especially a law this complex are two different things, and especially since APRIL was when the GOP HOR defunded the implementation budget. I realize nuance is something most conservatives don't get, but show a shred of intellectual honesty, please.
Click to expand...

The only one being intellectually dishonest is you. Baucus made the claim it was a train wreck. Why else give out exemptions and one year extensions to "special groups"? But hey when the truth isn't on your side, resort to petty insults.
 
It is not the Republicans who are "the hostage takers." Democrats are declaring Republicans must give then unlimited amounts of money or the Democrats in the US Senate will shut down the government and destroy the economy.

Claiming it is the Republicans who are the hostage takers is absurd. But that is the media hype.
 
Tigger said:
They would pay an equal price for NOT doing it. Believe it or not there are still some of us who have Principles and who will not vote for those who fail to uphold theirs after having stated them.
Click to expand...




I believe that some people in the Tea Party's 'principles' will cause them to go right over the edge of the Teavangelical's Flat Earth.

They will get no sympathy from me. I have been warning them about this result for years.

I will be glad to see them get what they deserve for their stupidity.

They may not like the results, but they can't say that they weren't warned.




"Better days are coming." ~ But not for today's out of touch, running out of time, GOP.
 
Last edited:
cpwill said:
As I understand it he was referring to implementation all-together. However, think about the implications of claiming that a program is going to fall apart because enough people won't be draining money from it.
Click to expand...

I see you didn't bother to look at the link I posted.

Actually, the concept is that higher participation will bring more money into the program. Read a little bit about risk pools and how they relate to health insurance to understand more.
 
shrubnose said:
They will pay a price for this.
Click to expand...

I am the last person to underestimate the power of the Democratic spin machine. But the tea party movement-supported Republican Representatives had been elected on the promise to be fiscal conservatives first and foremost. If they give up, and not use all tools at their disposal, they will pay a price for that. Not to mention that, thanks to decades of gerrymandering by both parties, Congressmen from deep red and deep blue districts are safe when they please their constituencies, not when they "moderate" their positions to fit some abstract national average. The calculation is different in the Senate, and especially for the potential presidential candidates. But that is too far in future, and public attention span is notoriously short.
 
shrubnose said:
I believe that some people in the Tea Party's 'principles' will cause them to go right over the edge of the Teavangelical's Flat Earth.

They will get no sympathy from me. I have been warning them about this result for years.

"Better days are coming." ~ But not for today's out of touch, running out of time, GOP.
Click to expand...

That's fine. I, like many of them, have no problem bearing the consequences of our Principles. The problem comes when people (like Libs) have no Principles and therefore cannot be expected to act in any predictable (nevermind decent) way.

As for the GOP... You're right they're running out of time. They have chosen to refuse to back those with Principles and soon will just become the Centrist portion of the Democratic Party while another, more Principled group rises to take their place. The only thing is that group may be a militia/army rather than a political party.
 
Tigger said:
That's fine. I, like many of them, have no problem bearing the consequences of our Principles. The problem comes when people (like Libs) have no Principles and therefore cannot be expected to act in any predictable (nevermind decent) way.

As for the GOP... You're right they're running out of time.
They have chosen to refuse to back those with Principles and soon will just become the Centrist portion of the Democratic Party while another, more Principled group rises to take their place.
Click to expand...
 The only thing is that group may be a militia/army rather than a political party.
Click to expand...




Wrong.

Any militia, or group which thinks (Wishes, hopes, dreams.) That it will go to war against the USA will end up like the South did in the American Civil War.

The GOP will join the Whigs. There will be no one to replace.
 
Last edited:
cpwill said:
:shrug: no one ever said that it does. However, it does control the White House and the Senate. That being said, I note that nothing you posted even addresses much less refutes what I pointed out: that budget negotiations involve actual negotiation, as well as compromise, and so the Administration has been trying to lock in the results of a year when it owned both houses of Congress and the White House in perpetuity by going outside the Budget Process to fund government. Now they are acting shocked to find people demanding compromise and negotiation, and climbing up on donkeys and tilting and windmill monsters, denouncing the very idea of negotiation. How Dare you think we would compromise?!? :roll:

It's childish and its cheap, but there are enough useful idiots in the media and low-information consumers that they will probably get away with it.
Click to expand...

Yet the Republicans in the House can't even get their act together to vote on a clean CR...and you expect reasonable negotiations? The GOP has declared themselves to be a body that won't compromise.

For an example of the mindset, see Tiggers post above. When you have Principles with a Capitol P, you don't negotiate.
 
shrubnose said:
Wrong. The GOP will join the Whigs. There will be no one to replace.
Click to expand...

No. They're simply becoming the right end of the Democratic Party, which makes them Centrists, by definition.

At the moment that there is nobody to counter the Leftist/Socialists in the Democratic Party, it's time to burn this nation the ground by whatever means are necessary.
 
Threegoofs said:
Yet the Republicans in the House can't even get their act together to vote on a clean CR...and you expect reasonable negotiations? The GOP has declared themselves to be a body that won't compromise.
Click to expand...

That's rich since Harry Reid has refused to compromise an both bills the House passed and the President has vowed to veto any changes to ObamaCare. Sounds to me like neither are talking and neither are willing to compromise and calling out only one side and ignoring the other is partisan convenience. The Republicans have no motivation to provide a clean CR - they, like the American public don't like Obamacare. The GOP is framing the 2014 mid-terms.
 
Tigger said:
No. They're simply becoming the right end of the Democratic Party, which makes them Centrists, by definition.

At the moment that there is nobody to counter the Leftist/Socialists in the Democratic Party, it's time to burn this nation the ground by whatever means are necessary.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...





When this is all over with, in the future, there will be no right, and there will certainly be no GOP.

They have sped up their own demise.

Not my problem.
 
shrubnose said:
Any militia, or group which thinks (Wishes, hopes, dreams.) That it will go to war against the USA will end up like the South did in the American Civil War.
Click to expand...

Better to die for what one believes in than to live in a society which has no Principles, Morals, or Values, shrub.

Better DEAD than RED
 
shrubnose said:
When this is all over with, in the future, there will be no right, and there will certainly be no GOP.
Click to expand...

Then this nation will no longer have any value, and the last potential bastion of decency in the world will have failed, thereby proving that the entire species of humanity has no more value than the variants of the plague virus.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom