View Poll Results: Is it Fair Play to Hold the Debt Ceiling Hostage?

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  • Yes

    35 38.04%
  • No

    57 61.96%
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Thread: Is it Fair Play to Hold the Debt Ceiling Hostage?

  1. #161
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    Re: Is it Fair Play to Hold the Debt Ceiling Hostage?

    Quote Originally Posted by Threegoofs View Post
    Right. Because the GOP won't give them anything better in terms of negotiations.

    Maybe you don't get the concept of negotiation...where one side gives up something and gets something in return.
    They already did compromise.

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    Re: Is it Fair Play to Hold the Debt Ceiling Hostage?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    No raising the debt ceiling is about defining the maximum amount of that can be borrowed, it does not itself borrow money which is why raising the debt ceiling does not raise the national debt
    So asking to raise the amount of money you can borrow so that you can shortly thereafter borrow that money doesn't raise our national debt? Perhaps I should try what you are smoking.
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

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    Re: Is it Fair Play to Hold the Debt Ceiling Hostage?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kobie View Post
    Again, you're wrong. They are two completely different pieces of legislation, and two entirely separate things.
    They are not completely different things. It is asking to borrow more money to fund the government. It doesn't matter if its current or future spending.So no they are not separate things.
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

    Cicero Marcus Tullius

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    Re: Is it Fair Play to Hold the Debt Ceiling Hostage?

    It depends. If you're just negotiation numbers, and you're close, but one side won't compromise, then maybe. But maybe not. But if you're threatening to hurt the country and millions of Americans if you don't get your pony, which was legally given to someone else years ago...that is immoral and not what an ethical politician would do.

  5. #165
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    Re: Is it Fair Play to Hold the Debt Ceiling Hostage?

    Quote Originally Posted by aberrant85 View Post
    Here's a rather frightening article about the repercussions of a credit default:

    Wall Street to GOP: Are you nuts? - Ben White - POLITICO.com

    "A brief shutdown would have some negative economic effects and could create political blowback on the GOP. But it would cause far less long-term damage than a default, which would likely send interest rates sky-rocketing, crush the stock market, devastate business and consumer confidence, and probably send the nationís economy hurtling back into recession if not depression."

    Let's say you and your brother go out for dinner. Your brother's behind the wheel. He wants Mexican, and you want Italian. You can't convince him and he can't convince you along the way. As you near a sharp curve, he keeps his foot on the gas and demands you give in to Mexican or he'll drive you both off the road.

    All bias aside, is this not what House Republicans are doing? They had two years in the last Congress to push their ideas. They failed to pass their agenda through the Senate and signed into law by the President. They lost seats in the election. They've had another 9 months to argue their ideas, with even less to show for it. Now that there is no time for debate, they are demanding their ideas be enacted or they will allow a catastrophic default on the US Government's debt.

    Is it out of bounds to demand this when you have not been able to convince your fellow Congressmen to support your ideas when there was time to debate them? Or is using the threat of disaster a legitimate political tool?
    The debt ceiling has always been a political football, at least since Reagan and actually before him. Eisenhower tried like all get out to balance the budget and succeeded three times I think. But who votes for raising the debt ceiling and who votes against, recently has been decided by who holds the presidency. Which party the president belongs to, if the president is of your party, you are all for raising it, if the president is of the opposite party, you are against it. Below shows you how the senate voted on the debt ceiling, during Bush the 2nd tenure, Democrats on the whole were adamantly against raising it, Republicans for raising the debt ceiling. Now exit Bush the 2nd and enter Obama, each party has done a 180, all of a sudden the Democrats are all for it, the Republicans against it. See below
    BUSH THE 2ND TENURE
    Year Democrats for Democrats against Republicans for Republicans against
    2003 3 45 50 1
    2004 2 46 50 1
    2006 0 44 52 3 *

    *It is interest to note in 2006 President Obama voted against raising the debt ceiling and made a speech stating it was unpatriotic to do so.
    OBAMA PRESIDENCY
    2009 59 0 1 40
    2010 60 0 0 40
    2012 52 3 1 45

    So one can see that neither party has any core beliefs when it comes to raising the debt ceiling. It all depends on whom or from which party the president is from.
    This Reform Party member thinks it is high past time that we start electing Americans to congress and the presidency who put America first and their political party further down the line. But for way too long we have been electing Republicans and Democrats who happen to be Americans instead of Americans who happen to be Republicans and Democrats.

  6. #166
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    Re: Is it Fair Play to Hold the Debt Ceiling Hostage?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dezaad View Post
    They are being irresponsible, and next year should be punished as such.
    they are only being irresponsible, becuase you feel that way. other people do not support your position.

    as to them being punished, that is why they are given only 2 years terms, to keep them closer to the people, if your correct they will be out of office, if your not they will retain their seats.

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    Re: Is it Fair Play to Hold the Debt Ceiling Hostage?

    Quote Originally Posted by Perotista View Post
    The debt ceiling has always been a political football, at least since Reagan and actually before him. Eisenhower tried like all get out to balance the budget and succeeded three times I think. But who votes for raising the debt ceiling and who votes against, recently has been decided by who holds the presidency. Which party the president belongs to, if the president is of your party, you are all for raising it, if the president is of the opposite party, you are against it. Below shows you how the senate voted on the debt ceiling, during Bush the 2nd tenure, Democrats on the whole were adamantly against raising it, Republicans for raising the debt ceiling. Now exit Bush the 2nd and enter Obama, each party has done a 180, all of a sudden the Democrats are all for it, the Republicans against it. See below
    BUSH THE 2ND TENURE
    Year Democrats for Democrats against Republicans for Republicans against
    2003 3 45 50 1
    2004 2 46 50 1
    2006 0 44 52 3 *

    *It is interest to note in 2006 President Obama voted against raising the debt ceiling and made a speech stating it was unpatriotic to do so.
    OBAMA PRESIDENCY
    2009 59 0 1 40
    2010 60 0 0 40
    2012 52 3 1 45

    So one can see that neither party has any core beliefs when it comes to raising the debt ceiling. It all depends on whom or from which party the president is from.
    Good evening, Pero.

    From what I see, neither party has any core beliefs...period! If they did, they would be working on the many problems facing this Country instead of playing their partisan games that solve nothing! It's almost as if the become confused and forget why they are there, which is to serve the voters who sent them there...not the other way around! Sheesh!

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    Re: Is it Fair Play to Hold the Debt Ceiling Hostage?

    Quote Originally Posted by polgara View Post
    Good evening, Pero.

    From what I see, neither party has any core beliefs...period! If they did, they would be working on the many problems facing this Country instead of playing their partisan games that solve nothing! It's almost as if the become confused and forget why they are there, which is to serve the voters who sent them there...not the other way around! Sheesh!
    Yeah, Washington operates in their own little world. They think us voters are just a necessary evil. Both parties manipulate the voters, districts and everything else to get people to vote for them. Then they do their own thing, their own party thing regardless of what the people think who sent them there in the first place. But then the problem is the people has the power to change things, but they don't. It seems to me the people love being stepped on and manipulated, I suppose that makes them feel good.
    This Reform Party member thinks it is high past time that we start electing Americans to congress and the presidency who put America first and their political party further down the line. But for way too long we have been electing Republicans and Democrats who happen to be Americans instead of Americans who happen to be Republicans and Democrats.

  9. #169
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    Re: Is it Fair Play to Hold the Debt Ceiling Hostage?

    How many debt ceiling votes have their been? And how many times did the Dems just argue "pass a spending resolution and do as we say" to the Republican House?

    They should hold it hostage, they should arm twist and force submission, they should not pass another essentially blanket spending bill to allow this to continue on.
    When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser. -Socrates
    Tired of elections being between the lesser of two evils.

  10. #170
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    Re: Is it Fair Play to Hold the Debt Ceiling Hostage?

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    They are not completely different things. It is asking to borrow more money to fund the government. It doesn't matter if its current or future spending.So no they are not separate things.
    Yes, they are. Sorry, but you're fractally wrong on this.
    Freedom of speech is not freedom from criticism.

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