View Poll Results: Is it Fair Play to Hold the Debt Ceiling Hostage?

Voters
92. You may not vote on this poll
  • Yes

    35 38.04%
  • No

    57 61.96%
Page 10 of 40 FirstFirst ... 8910111220 ... LastLast
Results 91 to 100 of 395

Thread: Is it Fair Play to Hold the Debt Ceiling Hostage?

  1. #91
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Ft. Campbell, KY
    Last Seen
    12-31-14 @ 08:37 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    12,177

    Re: Is it Fair Play to Hold the Debt Ceiling Hostage?

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    Again they are not separate.They are related.Raising the debt ceiling is asking to borrow more money to fund the government.
    No raising the debt ceiling is about defining the maximum amount of that can be borrowed, it does not itself borrow money which is why raising the debt ceiling does not raise the national debt

  2. #92
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    New England
    Last Seen
    05-01-14 @ 03:29 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Very Conservative
    Posts
    12,879

    Re: Is it Fair Play to Hold the Debt Ceiling Hostage?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    No raising the debt ceiling is about defining the maximum amount of that can be borrowed, it does not itself borrow money which is why raising the debt ceiling does not raise the national debt
    Alright. Then what is the alternative means by which the minority party ensures that the majority party cannot continue spending like drunken sailors, other than cutting off their ability to borrow more money by capping what can be borrowed?

    At what point does the Govenrment of the United States have to actually act in a fiscally responsible manner, in your mind?

  3. #93
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Ft. Campbell, KY
    Last Seen
    12-31-14 @ 08:37 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    12,177

    Re: Is it Fair Play to Hold the Debt Ceiling Hostage?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tigger View Post
    Alright. Then what is the alternative means by which the minority party ensures that the majority party cannot continue spending like drunken sailors, other than cutting off their ability to borrow more money by capping what can be borrowed?

    At what point does the Govenrment of the United States have to actually act in a fiscally responsible manner, in your mind?
    Firstly, the minority party spends like just drunken sailors just as bad as the majority party.

    Secondly, the government should start actually fiscally responsible right now which requires reasonable behavior from both the Republicans and the Democrats.

    Lastly, being in debt for a nation state is not fiscally irresponsible in and of itself, sovereign debt is a major source of market stability as well as a means for a country to invest in itself. That's not to say a country can borrow, borrow, borrow without any regard to its ability to repay but some borrowing is good and desirable, the issue comes when you become like Greece where they borrowed so much money that their required GDP growth would have to have been in the double digits in order for enough government revenue to be generated from taxes for the government to pay its debts. Then of course the recession hit which made it even worse, the US is not anywhere near that point it has every economic means to repay its debts so long as the government is willing to honor them.

    Even if you want the government to lower its debts, which I do as well, the solution is not to simply stop paying them. You wouldn't advise someone who's in debt that simply stopping to pay his bills is a smart way to get out of debt would you? The US government must honor the debt's its made while reducing its future creation of debts

  4. #94
    Guru
    Cyrylek's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Boston
    Last Seen
    02-05-17 @ 01:49 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian - Right
    Posts
    3,467

    Re: Is it Fair Play to Hold the Debt Ceiling Hostage?

    Quote Originally Posted by aberrant85 View Post
    Now that there is no time for debate, they are demanding their ideas be enacted or they will allow a catastrophic default on the US Government's debt.
    A catastrophic default cannot result from the debt ceiling not being raised alone. The government must also decide to not spend money it still has on paying the interest.

    As for overall justification for refusal to vote for raising debt ceiling, I think one Senator Barack Obama had summed it up quite well, back in 2006:

    "Mr. OBAMA. Mr. President, I rise
    today to talk about America’s debt
    problem.
    The fact that we are here today to
    debate raising America’s debt limit is a
    sign of leadership failure. It is a sign
    that the U.S. Government can’t pay its
    own bills. It is a sign that we now depend
    on ongoing financial assistance
    from foreign countries to finance our
    Government’s reckless fiscal policies.
    Over the past 5 years, our federal
    debt has increased by $3.5 trillion to
    $8.6 trillion. That is ‘‘trillion’’ with a
    ‘‘T.’’ That is money that we have borrowed
    from the Social Security trust
    fund, borrowed from China and Japan,
    borrowed from American taxpayers.
    And over the next 5 years, between now
    and 2011, the President’s budget will increase
    the debt by almost another $3.5
    trillion.
    Numbers that large are sometimes
    hard to understand. Some people may
    wonder why they matter. Here is why:
    This year, the Federal Government will
    spend $220 billion on interestThat is
    more money to pay interest on our national
    debt than we’ll spend on Medicaid
    and the State Children’s Health
    Insurance Program. That is more
    money to pay interest on our debt this
    year than we will spend on education,
    homeland security, transportation, and
    veterans benefits combined. It is more
    money in one year than we are likely
    to spend to rebuild the devastated gulf
    coast in a way that honors the best of
    America.
    And the cost of our debt is one of the
    fastest growing expenses in the Federal
    budget. This rising debt is a hidden domestic
    enemy, robbing our cities and
    States of critical investments in infrastructure
    like bridges, ports, and levees;
    robbing our families and our children
    of critical investments in education
    and health care reform; robbing
    our seniors of the retirement and
    health security they have counted on.
    Every dollar we pay in interest is a
    dollar that is not going to investment
    in America’s priorities. Instead, interest
    payments are a significant tax on
    all Americans—a debt tax that Washington
    doesn’t want to talk about. If
    Washington were serious about honest
    tax relief in this country, we would see
    an effort to reduce our national debt by
    returning to responsible fiscal policies.
    But we are not doing that. Despite
    repeated efforts by Senators CONRAD
    and FEINGOLD, the Senate continues to
    reject a return to the commonsense
    Pay-go rules that used to apply. Previously,
    Pay-go rules applied both to
    increases in mandatory spending and
    to tax cuts. The Senate had to abide by
    the commonsense budgeting principle
    of balancing expenses and revenues.
    Unfortunately, the principle was abandoned,
    and now the demands of budget
    discipline apply only to spending.
    As a result, tax breaks have not been
    paid for by reductions in Federal
    spending, and thus the only way to pay
    for them has been to increase our deficit
    to historically high levels and borrow
    more and more money. Now we
    have to pay for those tax breaks plus
    the cost of borrowing for them. Instead
    of reducing the deficit, as some people
    claimed, the fiscal policies of this administration
    and its allies in Congress
    will add more than $600 million in debt
    for each of the next 5 years. That is
    why I will once again cosponsor the
    Pay-go amendment and continue to
    hope that my colleagues will return to
    a smart rule that has worked in the
    past and can work again.
    Our debt also matters internationally.
    My friend, the ranking member of
    the Senate Budget Committee, likes to
    remind us that it took 42 Presidents 224
    years to run up only $1 trillion of foreign-
    held debt. This administration did
    more than that in just 5 years. Now,
    there is nothing wrong with borrowing
    from foreign countries. But we must
    remember that the more we depend on
    foreign nations to lend us money, the
    more our economic security is tied to
    the whims of foreign leaders whose interests
    might not be aligned with ours.
    Increasing America’s debt weakens
    us domestically and internationally.
    Leadership means that ‘‘the buck stops
    here.’’ Instead, Washington is shifting
    the burden of bad choices today onto
    the backs of our children and grandchildren.
    America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership. Americans
    deserve better.
    I therefore intend to oppose the effort
    to increase America’s debt limit.
    (March 16, 2006).

    From: http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CREC-20...t1-PgS2236.pdf

    (Oh, and don't even try to say: That was a symbolic protest vote and a bit of excusable posturing. The roll call in Senate was close, 52-48. Not a single Democrat voted Yea, and 3 Republicans had switched sides. Three more - and the debt ceiling would not be raised:

    http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LI...n=2&vote=00054)
    Last edited by Cyrylek; 09-30-13 at 08:44 AM.

  5. #95
    Sage
    shrubnose's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Europe
    Last Seen
    11-29-17 @ 03:46 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Centrist
    Posts
    18,851
    Blog Entries
    2

    Re: Is it Fair Play to Hold the Debt Ceiling Hostage?

    The GOP will pay a price for this.

    Don't take my word for this, just wait and see.

    This is a stupid thing for them to do. There is no upside for them with this stupidity.

    They will pay a price for this.

  6. #96
    The Dude
    Kobie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Location
    Western NY
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 09:01 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    42,895

    Re: Is it Fair Play to Hold the Debt Ceiling Hostage?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrylek View Post
    A catastrophic default cannot result from the debt ceiling not being raised alone. The government must also decide to not to spend money it still has on paying the interest.

    As for overall justification for refusal to vote for raising debt ceiling, I think one Senator Barack Obama had summed it up quite well, back in 2006:

    "Mr. OBAMA. Mr. President, I rise
    today to talk about America’s debt
    problem.
    The fact that we are here today to
    debate raising America’s debt limit is a
    sign of leadership failure. It is a sign
    that the U.S. Government can’t pay its
    own bills. It is a sign that we now depend
    on ongoing financial assistance
    from foreign countries to finance our
    Government’s reckless fiscal policies.
    Over the past 5 years, our federal
    debt has increased by $3.5 trillion to
    $8.6 trillion. That is ‘‘trillion’’ with a
    ‘‘T.’’ That is money that we have borrowed
    from the Social Security trust
    fund, borrowed from China and Japan,
    borrowed from American taxpayers.
    And over the next 5 years, between now
    and 2011, the President’s budget will increase
    the debt by almost another $3.5
    trillion.
    Numbers that large are sometimes
    hard to understand. Some people may
    wonder why they matter. Here is why:
    This year, the Federal Government will
    spend $220 billion on interestThat is
    more money to pay interest on our national
    debt than we’ll spend on Medicaid
    and the State Children’s Health
    Insurance Program. That is more
    money to pay interest on our debt this
    year than we will spend on education,
    homeland security, transportation, and
    veterans benefits combined. It is more
    money in one year than we are likely
    to spend to rebuild the devastated gulf
    coast in a way that honors the best of
    America.
    And the cost of our debt is one of the
    fastest growing expenses in the Federal
    budget. This rising debt is a hidden domestic
    enemy, robbing our cities and
    States of critical investments in infrastructure
    like bridges, ports, and levees;
    robbing our families and our children
    of critical investments in education
    and health care reform; robbing
    our seniors of the retirement and
    health security they have counted on.
    Every dollar we pay in interest is a
    dollar that is not going to investment
    in America’s priorities. Instead, interest
    payments are a significant tax on
    all Americans—a debt tax that Washington
    doesn’t want to talk about. If
    Washington were serious about honest
    tax relief in this country, we would see
    an effort to reduce our national debt by
    returning to responsible fiscal policies.
    But we are not doing that. Despite
    repeated efforts by Senators CONRAD
    and FEINGOLD, the Senate continues to
    reject a return to the commonsense
    Pay-go rules that used to apply. Previously,
    Pay-go rules applied both to
    increases in mandatory spending and
    to tax cuts. The Senate had to abide by
    the commonsense budgeting principle
    of balancing expenses and revenues.
    Unfortunately, the principle was abandoned,
    and now the demands of budget
    discipline apply only to spending.
    As a result, tax breaks have not been
    paid for by reductions in Federal
    spending, and thus the only way to pay
    for them has been to increase our deficit
    to historically high levels and borrow
    more and more money. Now we
    have to pay for those tax breaks plus
    the cost of borrowing for them. Instead
    of reducing the deficit, as some people
    claimed, the fiscal policies of this administration
    and its allies in Congress
    will add more than $600 million in debt
    for each of the next 5 years. That is
    why I will once again cosponsor the
    Pay-go amendment and continue to
    hope that my colleagues will return to
    a smart rule that has worked in the
    past and can work again.
    Our debt also matters internationally.
    My friend, the ranking member of
    the Senate Budget Committee, likes to
    remind us that it took 42 Presidents 224
    years to run up only $1 trillion of foreign-
    held debt. This administration did
    more than that in just 5 years. Now,
    there is nothing wrong with borrowing
    from foreign countries. But we must
    remember that the more we depend on
    foreign nations to lend us money, the
    more our economic security is tied to
    the whims of foreign leaders whose interests
    might not be aligned with ours.
    Increasing America’s debt weakens
    us domestically and internationally.
    Leadership means that ‘‘the buck stops
    here.’’ Instead, Washington is shifting
    the burden of bad choices today onto
    the backs of our children and grandchildren.
    America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership. Americans
    deserve better.
    I therefore intend to oppose the effort
    to increase America’s debt limit.
    (March 16, 2006).

    From: http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CREC-20...t1-PgS2236.pdf
    Yep, and Obama was wrong.
    Freedom of speech is not freedom from criticism.

  7. #97
    Sage
    shrubnose's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Europe
    Last Seen
    11-29-17 @ 03:46 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Centrist
    Posts
    18,851
    Blog Entries
    2

    Re: Is it Fair Play to Hold the Debt Ceiling Hostage?

    Whatever.

    That was then, this is now.

    Let's all wait and see how this works out for the GOP.

    I predict that they won't like the results of their own stupidity.

  8. #98
    Guru
    Cyrylek's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Boston
    Last Seen
    02-05-17 @ 01:49 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian - Right
    Posts
    3,467

    Re: Is it Fair Play to Hold the Debt Ceiling Hostage?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kobie View Post
    Yep, and Obama was wrong.
    Or, he was right then, and he is wrong now - considering that the problem he had described with his usual eloquence is still with us, only multiplied by an unpleasantly large factor.

  9. #99
    Professor
    sKiTzo's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    OC California
    Last Seen
    12-13-17 @ 02:03 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Other
    Posts
    2,213

    Re: Is it Fair Play to Hold the Debt Ceiling Hostage?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kobie View Post
    Paul didn't have the delgates to win the nomination, and to be frank I really don't have much use for Ron Paul. That said, you're absolutely right regarding how the GOP treated him at the convention. Like him or not, he is a guy who (outside of becoming a Republican in the first place, since that was the only way he could ever get elected) stuck by his principles and had the balls to tell the GOP establishment how wrong they were on a number of issues, and they made a public spectacle of attempting to put him "in his place," so to speak. The GOP lost a lot of young voters by sticking it to Paul the way they did.
    Without going too far off topic, I must say you are one of the few who even acknowledge how dirty they did Ron Paul, but we have to realize that by doing what they did, they did the whole system dirty, not just Ron Paul. He DID have the delegates and they scandalously unseated and replaced them all.

  10. #100
    Sage
    cpwill's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    USofA
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 08:57 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    57,115

    Re: Is it Fair Play to Hold the Debt Ceiling Hostage?

    Quote Originally Posted by johndylan1 View Post
    All negotiations have some basic components. One component is leverage. No good negotiator removes the leverage he holds from the debate until a satisfactory compromise has been met.
    Yup. And all budgets involve negotiation. The Administration wants to avoid that by refusing to have a budget. Too Bad, So Sad. Negotiate.

Page 10 of 40 FirstFirst ... 8910111220 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •