View Poll Results: Should owning property be a requirement to vote

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  • yes, only property owners should vote

    10 10.00%
  • no, let everyone vote

    90 90.00%
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Thread: Only property owners should vote

  1. #631
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    Re: Only property owners should vote

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    My opinion is that there is no need to cast aside the Constitution. It is not the Articles of Confederation. It is already set up just fine to deal with our current century without major changes. Many of the changes needed for it to adapt have already been made in the forms of Amendments put in place over the last century or more, basically since the original Bill of Rights.
    show me in our Constitution, where housing is, education, transportation, welfare..most of the things government is going is by federal law, why is not in the 18 delegated powers of congress to do.

    no amendment in the constitution places a limit on citizens or business, can you tell me then how the federal government then has that power?


    and to add this from the constitution---To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of particular States, and the Acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings"
    .

  2. #632
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    Re: Only property owners should vote

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    show me in our Constitution, where housing is, education, transportation, welfare..most of the things government is going is by federal law, why is not in the 18 delegated powers of congress to do.

    no amendment in the constitution places a limit on citizens or business, can you tell me then how the federal government then has that power?


    and to add this from the constitution---To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of particular States, and the Acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings"
    .
    Everything doesn't need to be mentioned in our Constitution for us to be able to allow the federal government to have a say in it.

    Education is a big one, especially to someone like me. My family is military. We move around, as do many of my neighbors. My son just started Kindergarten last month. Since then, at least one boy has moved and another student has moved in. Me and the two other moms I have become friends with in this last month all know that we will be moving somewhere else before the end of the school year. This means that wherever our children go to school, it would be great if they could not be behind just because their fathers' service obligations take them all over the country. This means that schools need to have a plan to stay with each other, ensuring students entering the schools are not at a disadvantage just because they come to a new school.

    This is the United States. It is a single country, which means the most important things should be at least the same throughout the country, because otherwise people get screwed. We simply are not the same country we started as.
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  3. #633
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    Re: Only property owners should vote

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Everything doesn't need to be mentioned in our Constitution for us to be able to allow the federal government to have a say in it.

    Education is a big one, especially to someone like me. My family is military. We move around, as do many of my neighbors. My son just started Kindergarten last month. Since then, at least one boy has moved and another student has moved in. Me and the two other moms I have become friends with in this last month all know that we will be moving somewhere else before the end of the school year. This means that wherever our children go to school, it would be great if they could not be behind just because their fathers' service obligations take them all over the country. This means that schools need to have a plan to stay with each other, ensuring students entering the schools are not at a disadvantage just because they come to a new school.

    This is the United States. It is a single country, which means the most important things should be at least the same throughout the country, because otherwise people get screwed. We simply are not the same country we started as.


    first i am speaking of the federal government only......

    sorry but you are incorrect, only powers delegated to congress can they engage in, our government was meant to be limited.

    the u.s, is a union of states ,it does not have a national government ...its federal, it practices federalism......we are not like France.


    “With respect to the two words ‘general welfare,’ I have always regarded them as qualified by the detail of powers connected with them. To take them in a literal and unlimited sense would be a metamorphosis of the Constitution into a character which there is a host of proofs was not contemplated by its creators.” – James Madison in letter to James Robertson

    “[Congressional jurisdiction of power] is limited to certain enumerated objects, which concern all the members of the republic, but which are not to be attained by the separate provisions of any.” – James Madison, Federalist 14

    “The powers delegated by the proposed Constitution to the federal government are few and defined . . . to be exercised principally on external objects, as war, peace, negotiation, and foreign commerce.” – James Madison, Federalist 45

    “If Congress can do whatever in their discretion can be done by money, and will promote the General Welfare, the Government is no longer a limited one, possessing enumerated powers, but an indefinite one, subject to particular exceptions.” – James Madison, 1792

    “The Constitution allows only the means which are ‘necessary,’ not those which are merely ‘convenient,’ for effecting the enumerated powers. If such a latitude of construction be allowed to this phrase as to give any non-enumerated power, it will go to every one, for there is not one which ingenuity may not torture into a convenience in some instance or other, to some one of so long a list of enumerated powers. It would swallow up all the delegated powers, and reduce the whole to one power, as before observed” – Thomas Jefferson, 1791

    Congress has not unlimited powers to provide for the general welfare, but only those specifically enumerated.” – Thomas Jefferson, 1798

    There you have it. James Madison, the Constitution’s author and Thomas Jefferson the author of the Declaration of Independence, specifically say that Congressional powers are to be limited and defined – unlike most modern interpretations!

    Admittedly, Jefferson and Madison were not our only Founders. These two were strict constitutionalists who feared the potential strength of any government. So let’s look at another Founder’s opinion—Alexander Hamilton who historically saw it in a somewhat looser vain.

    “This specification of particulars [the 18 enumerated powers of Article I, Section 8] evidently excludes all pretension to a general legislative authority, because an affirmative grant of special powers would be absurd as well as useless if a general authority was intended.” – Alexander Hamilton, Federalist 83

    Hamilton uncategorically states that all congressional powers are enumerated and that the very existence of these enumerations alone makes any belief that Congress has full and general legislative power to act as it desires nonsensical. If such broad congressional power had been the original intent, the constitutionally specified powers would have been worthless. In other words, why even enumerate any powers at all if the General Welfare clause could trump them?

    “No legislative act … contrary to the Constitution can be valid. To deny this would be to affirm that the deputy is greater than his principal; that the servant is above his master; that the representatives of the people are superior to the people themselves; that men acting by virtue of powers may do not only what their powers do not authorize, but what they forbid.” – Alexander Hamilton, Federalist 78

    In short, Hamilton tells us that since the powers of Congress are enumerated and limit Congress to those powers, any assumed authority outside those specified that don’t have a direct relation to those explicit powers must be contrary to the Constitution and therefore — unconstitutional.
    Last edited by Master PO; 10-01-13 at 11:54 PM.

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    Re: Only property owners should vote

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    first i am speaking of the federal government only......

    sorry but you are incorrect, only powers delegated to congress can they engage in, our government was meant to be limited.

    the u.s, is a union of states ,it does not have a national government ...its federal, it practices federalism......we are not like France.


    “With respect to the two words ‘general welfare,’ I have always regarded them as qualified by the detail of powers connected with them. To take them in a literal and unlimited sense would be a metamorphosis of the Constitution into a character which there is a host of proofs was not contemplated by its creators.” – James Madison in letter to James Robertson

    “[Congressional jurisdiction of power] is limited to certain enumerated objects, which concern all the members of the republic, but which are not to be attained by the separate provisions of any.” – James Madison, Federalist 14

    “The powers delegated by the proposed Constitution to the federal government are few and defined . . . to be exercised principally on external objects, as war, peace, negotiation, and foreign commerce.” – James Madison, Federalist 45

    “If Congress can do whatever in their discretion can be done by money, and will promote the General Welfare, the Government is no longer a limited one, possessing enumerated powers, but an indefinite one, subject to particular exceptions.” – James Madison, 1792

    “The Constitution allows only the means which are ‘necessary,’ not those which are merely ‘convenient,’ for effecting the enumerated powers. If such a latitude of construction be allowed to this phrase as to give any non-enumerated power, it will go to every one, for there is not one which ingenuity may not torture into a convenience in some instance or other, to some one of so long a list of enumerated powers. It would swallow up all the delegated powers, and reduce the whole to one power, as before observed” – Thomas Jefferson, 1791

    Congress has not unlimited powers to provide for the general welfare, but only those specifically enumerated.” – Thomas Jefferson, 1798

    There you have it. James Madison, the Constitution’s author and Thomas Jefferson the author of the Declaration of Independence, specifically say that Congressional powers are to be limited and defined – unlike most modern interpretations!

    Admittedly, Jefferson and Madison were not our only Founders. These two were strict constitutionalists who feared the potential strength of any government. So let’s look at another Founder’s opinion—Alexander Hamilton who historically saw it in a somewhat looser vain.

    “This specification of particulars [the 18 enumerated powers of Article I, Section 8] evidently excludes all pretension to a general legislative authority, because an affirmative grant of special powers would be absurd as well as useless if a general authority was intended.” – Alexander Hamilton, Federalist 83

    Hamilton uncategorically states that all congressional powers are enumerated and that the very existence of these enumerations alone makes any belief that Congress has full and general legislative power to act as it desires nonsensical. If such broad congressional power had been the original intent, the constitutionally specified powers would have been worthless. In other words, why even enumerate any powers at all if the General Welfare clause could trump them?

    “No legislative act … contrary to the Constitution can be valid. To deny this would be to affirm that the deputy is greater than his principal; that the servant is above his master; that the representatives of the people are superior to the people themselves; that men acting by virtue of powers may do not only what their powers do not authorize, but what they forbid.” – Alexander Hamilton, Federalist 78

    In short, Hamilton tells us that since the powers of Congress are enumerated and limit Congress to those powers, any assumed authority outside those specified that don’t have a direct relation to those explicit powers must be contrary to the Constitution and therefore — unconstitutional.
    Whether you agree or not, "promote the general welfare", a power granted to the federal government, easily covers much of what the government does. It is an extremely general statement and easily used to justify pretty much anything the federal government wants to do. Perhaps it was a mistake on the writers' part or maybe it was a way that those who wanted more federal power were able to ensure that eventually, when the world changed to what it is now, and if we hadn't already broken apart, we would have a much more unified nation.

    The federalists papers nor any other documents mean anything when it comes to the laws of the US. Legally, the Constitution is what matters when it comes to the powers of the federal government or the states. And the states have been limited in their powers. The majority of people feel that they are protected much better by the federal government from the states than they are by the states from the federal government. And let's face it, history proves this to be pretty true. Most laws that limited individual rights were state laws, not federal (although there are certainly some exceptions to this).
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

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    Re: Only property owners should vote

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Whether you agree or not, "promote the general welfare", a power granted to the federal government, easily covers much of what the government does. It is an extremely general statement and easily used to justify pretty much anything the federal government wants to do. Perhaps it was a mistake on the writers' part or maybe it was a way that those who wanted more federal power were able to ensure that eventually, when the world changed to what it is now, and if we hadn't already broken apart, we would have a much more unified nation.

    The federalists papers nor any other documents mean anything when it comes to the laws of the US. Legally, the Constitution is what matters when it comes to the powers of the federal government or the states. And the states have been limited in their powers. The majority of people feel that they are protected much better by the federal government from the states than they are by the states from the federal government. And let's face it, history proves this to be pretty true. Most laws that limited individual rights were state laws, not federal (although there are certainly some exceptions to this).

    that is incorrect, if the federal government could do that when they would be unlimited.

    “If Congress can do whatever in their discretion can be done by money, and will promote the General Welfare, the Government is no longer a limited one, possessing enumerated powers, but an indefinite one, subject to particular exceptions.” – James Madison, 1792

    Hamilton in federalist 84 state the constitution itself of 1788 is a bill of rights within itself, becuase the federal government is strictly limited, and its not possible for it to violate the rights of the people.

    10th--The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

    the states have most of the powers.

  6. #636
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    Re: Only property owners should vote

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    that is incorrect, if the federal government could do that when they would be unlimited.

    “If Congress can do whatever in their discretion can be done by money, and will promote the General Welfare, the Government is no longer a limited one, possessing enumerated powers, but an indefinite one, subject to particular exceptions.” – James Madison, 1792

    Hamilton in federalist 84 state the constitution itself of 1788 is a bill of rights within itself, becuase the federal government is strictly limited, and its not possible for it to violate the rights of the people.

    10th--The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

    the states have most of the powers.
    SO then what are you complaining about?

    I like how we are. The states shouldn't have the most powers because we don't live in the 18th Century. It doesn't take us weeks or even months to move from one state to another. We can easily communicate with someone in any other US state instantaneously instead of having to wait for correspondence to reach them and then for their response to reach us, a process taking weeks, if not months or more, depending on who and where you are communicating with.

    Times have changed. And they aren't going back. If it became necessary, I could easily see us adding Amendments that removed powers from the states and granted them to the federal government, given our current needs.
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    Re: Only property owners should vote

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    SO then what are you complaining about?

    I like how we are. The states shouldn't have the most powers because we don't live in the 18th Century. It doesn't take us weeks or even months to move from one state to another. We can easily communicate with someone in any other US state instantaneously instead of having to wait for correspondence to reach them and then for their response to reach us, a process taking weeks, if not months or more, depending on who and where you are communicating with.

    Times have changed. And they aren't going back. If it became necessary, I could easily see us adding Amendments that removed powers from the states and granted them to the federal government, given our current needs.
    so again your not for the federal government following the constitution, however you would tell the states they must.

    the only way the states can have their powers taken from them is if they consent to it by ratifying amendments to do that...and thats not going to happen.

    the founders have proven you wrong in your words, ...you just want the government to act in a fashion which you approve of, and that is not constitutional.

    the founders are clear... government is supposed to be limited, becuase unlimited government becomes tyrannical.

  8. #638
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    Re: Only property owners should vote

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    so again your not for the federal government following the constitution, however you would tell the states they must.

    the only way the states can have their powers taken from them is if they consent to it by ratifying amendments to do that...and thats not going to happen.

    the founders have proven you wrong in your words, ...you just want the government to act in a fashion which you approve of, and that is not constitutional.

    the founders are clear... government is supposed to be limited, becuase unlimited government becomes tyrannical.
    They are following the Constitution. They are ensuring the general welfare for all US citizens, despite the state they live in. You can complain if you like, but it is the case. And it has held up just fine for quite a number of decades now as a just reason. I would much rather my rights be protected rather than the states' rights be protected.
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  9. #639
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    Re: Only property owners should vote

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    They are following the Constitution. They are ensuring the general welfare for all US citizens, despite the state they live in. You can complain if you like, but it is the case. And it has held up just fine for quite a number of decades now as a just reason. I would much rather my rights be protected rather than the states' rights be protected.

    sorry thats incorrect.... the general welfare is the 18 powers of congress, it is not a free license to do as they feel like.

    “This specification of particulars [the 18 enumerated powers of Article I, Section 8] evidently excludes all pretension to a general legislative authority, because an affirmative grant of special powers would be absurd as well as useless if a general authority was intended.” – Alexander Hamilton, Federalist 83

    for you to say the federal governments powers are unlimited is false, ........becuase the founders say ......it is limited.

    Charity is no part of the legislative duty of the government."--James Madison

    “I cannot undertake to lay my finger on that article of the Constitution which granted a right to Congress of expending, on objects of benevolence, the money of their constituents.”--james madison

  10. #640
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    Re: Only property owners should vote

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    sorry thats incorrect.... the general welfare is the 18 powers of congress, it is not a free license to do as they feel like.

    “This specification of particulars [the 18 enumerated powers of Article I, Section 8] evidently excludes all pretension to a general legislative authority, because an affirmative grant of special powers would be absurd as well as useless if a general authority was intended.” – Alexander Hamilton, Federalist 83

    for you to say the federal governments powers are unlimited is false, ........becuase the founders say ......it is limited.
    And obviously it hasn't been used as such. It has been used to expand their powers though, whether you agree or not, and that has been approved as acceptable by the SCOTUS and people simply don't care enough to stop them. I am one of those people.

    As I've said, I am much more concerned about protected my own and others' rights from the states than from the federal government. History shows us that states are much more likely to try to infringe upon individual rights than the federal government.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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