View Poll Results: Should owning property be a requirement to vote

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100. You may not vote on this poll
  • yes, only property owners should vote

    10 10.00%
  • no, let everyone vote

    90 90.00%
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Thread: Only property owners should vote

  1. #601
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    Re: Only property owners should vote

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    do people vote for politicians, who promise them they will get the rich, make them pay their fair share.

    i believe what Madison says if true, those who have no stake, will use their vote for injustice, maybe not everyone, but it is natural for man to look at another man and be envious.

    The right of suffrage is a fundamental Article in Republican Constitutions. The regulation of it is, at the same time, a task of peculiar delicacy. Allow the right exclusively to property, and the rights of persons may be oppressed. The feudal polity alone sufficiently proves it. Extend it equally to all, and the rights of property or the claims of justice may be overruled by a majority without property, or interested in measures of injustice. Of this abundant proof is afforded by other popular Govts. and is not without examples in our own, particularly in the laws impairing the obligation of contracts.
    Some may, most people, particularly those who are of the "lower" classes don't. They care, for the most part about politicians who are going to help them take care of their families, not "make them rich" or those politicians who will keep their values, whether it is being for or against same sex marriage, and/or keeping foreigners out or helping foreigners make it into this country or something in between, and/or abortion, and/or military, and/or education, and/or the environment, and/or guns/gun control, or so many other things. Most people care about much more than just becoming rich, particularly if they are at the bottom of the totem pole. I believe those at the top are much more concerned about staying rich or getting richer than those at the bottom are about becoming rich.
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    Re: Only property owners should vote

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Some may, most people, particularly those who are of the "lower" classes don't. They care, for the most part about politicians who are going to help them take care of their families, not "make them rich" or those politicians who will keep their values, whether it is being for or against same sex marriage, and/or keeping foreigners out or helping foreigners make it into this country or something in between, and/or abortion, and/or military, and/or education, and/or the environment, and/or guns/gun control, or so many other things. Most people care about much more than just becoming rich, particularly if they are at the bottom of the totem pole. I believe those at the top are much more concerned about staying rich or getting richer than those at the bottom are about becoming rich.


    Madison --Extend it equally to all, and the rights of property or the claims of justice may be overruled by a majority without property, or interested in measures of injustice.


    translation of Madison--Extend the vote equally to all, and those with property or on the side of law, may be overruled by the majority without property or interested in measures of ....today's word [SOCIAL JUSTICE]


    i believe madison to be correct.

  3. #603
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    Re: Only property owners should vote

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    Madison --Extend it equally to all, and the rights of property or the claims of justice may be overruled by a majority without property, or interested in measures of injustice.


    translation of Madison--Extend the vote equally to all, and those with property or on the side of law, may be overruled by the majority without property or interested in measures of ....today's word [SOCIAL JUSTICE]


    i believe madison to be correct.
    That doesn't mean either of you are right just because you believe it.

    The truth is that people are not as you believe they are. Some are, but not all or even most. Most people are content just being able to provide for their families. They don't need to be rich. The majority of people own some property. Just because they don't own land, doesn't mean they are all out to get those that do. In fact, at least some of those don't own land because it is impractical for them to do so. Some sold their land in exchange for a more free life or a different life, perhaps driving around the country or maybe to live on a houseboat, which they would have the freedom to take wherever they wish, instead of being stuck in one spot. They aren't out to get landowners, they simply do not have the same ideals of what makes life good as you do. It doesn't mean they shouldn't have a say in laws that affect them just because they think differently or have different dreams/aspirations than you.

    (And the houseboat thing does come from a personal dream of my own, as the RV/driving around the country thing is from my mom, who has always said she has gypsy blood. My mother has worked since she was old enough to do so and pays taxes. She doesn't own property, but she sure as hell does a lot to serve her country, even over 30 years after getting out of the Army. She is a traveling nurse, going from state to state to work where nurses are needed. In case you aren't aware, there is a nurse shortage in this country, especially certain areas. Many traveling nurses prefer not to own land, choosing instead to be able to move wherever they are needed. And they aren't the only such travelers in this country.)
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    Re: Only property owners should vote

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    That doesn't mean either of you are right just because you believe it.

    The truth is that people are not as you believe they are. Some are, but not all or even most. Most people are content just being able to provide for their families. They don't need to be rich. The majority of people own some property. Just because they don't own land, doesn't mean they are all out to get those that do. In fact, at least some of those don't own land because it is impractical for them to do so. Some sold their land in exchange for a more free life or a different life, perhaps driving around the country or maybe to live on a houseboat, which they would have the freedom to take wherever they wish, instead of being stuck in one spot. They aren't out to get landowners, they simply do not have the same ideals of what makes life good as you do. It doesn't mean they shouldn't have a say in laws that affect them just because they think differently or have different dreams/aspirations than you.

    (And the houseboat thing does come from a personal dream of my own, as the RV/driving around the country thing is from my mom, who has always said she has gypsy blood. My mother has worked since she was old enough to do so and pays taxes. She doesn't own property, but she sure as hell does a lot to serve her country, even over 30 years after getting out of the Army. She is a traveling nurse, going from state to state to work where nurses are needed. In case you aren't aware, there is a nurse shortage in this country, especially certain areas. Many traveling nurses prefer not to own land, choosing instead to be able to move wherever they are needed. And they aren't the only such travelers in this country.)
    well i believe as Madison says also...that people are self serving creatures, and will always work in their own interest, ..it just human nature....so its to be expected.

    but as to property, it does not always mean land , and madison states in this paper on property.....

    James Madison, Property
    29 Mar. 1792Papers 14:266--68

    This term in its particular application means "that dominion which one man claims and exercises over the external things of the world, in exclusion of every other individual."

    In its larger and juster meaning, it embraces every thing to which a man may attach a value and have a right; and which leaves to every one else the like advantage.

    In the former sense, a man's land, or merchandize, or money is called his property.


    so its not the idea of land, its the idea of property, be it any sort, and some people are using their vote to obtain money from other people, via the government.

  5. #605
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    Re: Only property owners should vote

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    well i believe as Madison says also...that people are self serving creatures, and will always work in their own interest, ..it just human nature....so its to be expected.

    but as to property, it does not always mean land , and madison states in this paper on property.....

    James Madison, Property
    29 Mar. 1792Papers 14:266--68

    This term in its particular application means "that dominion which one man claims and exercises over the external things of the world, in exclusion of every other individual."

    In its larger and juster meaning, it embraces every thing to which a man may attach a value and have a right; and which leaves to every one else the like advantage.

    In the former sense, a man's land, or merchandize, or money is called his property.


    so its not the idea of land, its the idea of property, be it any sort, and some people are using their vote to obtain money from other people, via the government.
    Many are, but many also see their moral obligations as more important than their own material desires, which would still be self-serving. Not everyone has the same personal desires or self-serving interests. And still others are much more intelligent than you give them credit for. They know that the government can't legitimately deliver any promises of becoming rich. Doesn't mean they don't still have a valid interest in this country.

    Very few people in this country do not own some property, of some kind. In fact, pretty much anyone who would likely be interested in voting would own some property. It isn't logical to believe that someone wouldn't own anything at all, even if it is just clothing or some personal memento.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

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  6. #606
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    Re: Only property owners should vote

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Many are, but many also see their moral obligations as more important than their own material desires, which would still be self-serving. Not everyone has the same personal desires or self-serving interests. And still others are much more intelligent than you give them credit for. They know that the government can't legitimately deliver any promises of becoming rich. Doesn't mean they don't still have a valid interest in this country.

    Very few people in this country do not own some property, of some kind. In fact, pretty much anyone who would likely be interested in voting would own some property. It isn't logical to believe that someone wouldn't own anything at all, even if it is just clothing or some personal memento.
    but this is how i see it from Madison's view.

    rich citizens with land and material goods, are they going to use their vote to redistribute property [money] in the hands of the poor.... to themselves........no.. i dont see this happening.

    but will the poor use their vote , to redistribute property [money] to themselves from the rich, yes....... it is being done today, and calls for more of it.

    i dont advocate people owning land to vote, however i think i very reasonable for people to pay taxes into our federal system, to vote in our federal system.

  7. #607
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    Re: Only property owners should vote

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    but this is how i see it from Madison's view.

    rich citizens with land and material goods, are they going to use their vote to redistribute property [money] in the hands of the poor.... to themselves........no.. i dont see this happening.

    but will the poor use their vote , to redistribute property [money] to themselves from the rich, yes....... it is being done today, and calls for more of it.

    i dont advocate people owning land to vote, however i think i very reasonable for people to pay taxes into our federal system, to vote in our federal system.
    The poor are more likely to use their vote to try to balance out the money, if they can, or at least get more of it for themselves. Their actions may not always work, but it is stupid to assume that not giving them the vote to try is better. The rich, you said yourself, are more likely to vote to try to keep their money for them. There has to be voters to balance that or we become a society where their is most certainly an elite class with more rights than those who have less than they do.

    Taxes are paid by everyone, whether you want to believe the hype or not. At some time in their lives, everyone pays taxes. It is wrong to punish someone by making them lose their vote simply because of rules of taxation that they in fact have very little actual say in.
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  8. #608
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    Re: Only property owners should vote

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    The poor are more likely to use their vote to try to balance out the money, if they can, or at least get more of it for themselves. Their actions may not always work, but it is stupid to assume that not giving them the vote to try is better. The rich, you said yourself, are more likely to vote to try to keep their money for them. There has to be voters to balance that or we become a society where their is most certainly an elite class with more rights than those who have less than they do.

    Taxes are paid by everyone, whether you want to believe the hype or not. At some time in their lives, everyone pays taxes. It is wrong to punish someone by making them lose their vote simply because of rules of taxation that they in fact have very little actual say in.
    sorry but you are incorrect, because you did not stay with me on taxes.........i stated income tax........not sales, or property , or any other, ......but income.

    there are citizens who pay no federal income tax, but receive a tax rebate, for child earned income tax credit.

    paying no income taxes, but receiving money from government via a check........and voting.

    explain why a citizen, who pays no federal income tax as others do, should receive and equal in a federal election?

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    Re: Only property owners should vote

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    sorry but you are incorrect, because you did not stay with me on taxes.........i stated income tax........not sales, or property , or any other, ......but income.
    And the inherent unfairness of that is to so limit what is being discussed as to render a discussion of taxation utterly ridiculous unless all forms are included.
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  10. #610
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    Re: Only property owners should vote

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    sorry but you are incorrect, because you did not stay with me on taxes.........i stated income tax........not sales, or property , or any other, ......but income.

    there are citizens who pay no federal income tax, but receive a tax rebate, for child earned income tax credit.

    paying no income taxes, but receiving money from government via a check........and voting.

    explain why a citizen, who pays no federal income tax as others do, should receive and equal in a federal election?
    It's disingenuous to include only income tax payers as proper federal taxpayers.
    If you claim sexual harassment to be wrong, yet you defend anyone on your side for any reason,
    then you are a hypocrite and everything you say on the matter is just babble.

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