View Poll Results: Should owning property be a requirement to vote

Voters
100. You may not vote on this poll
  • yes, only property owners should vote

    10 10.00%
  • no, let everyone vote

    90 90.00%
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Thread: Only property owners should vote

  1. #531
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    Re: Only property owners should vote

    Quote Originally Posted by sawyerloggingon View Post
    How responsible is a convicted felon? We don't let them vote. How responsible is a crack whore with a bunch of illegitimate kids? Should we let her vote? REALLY???
    Well according to you - if they own property - they should vote!

    Gee how that just doesn't work.
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    Re: Only property owners should vote

    Quote Originally Posted by Neomalthusian View Post
    That's fine. Diminished voting power should be restored as people's reliance on welfare reverses.



    For one thing, they already do this, but it is difficult to do. "Targeting those who are collecting it that don't really need it" requires gathering data/evidence of fraud, and prying into people's lives to pin down this verifiable facts is difficult and can be time consuming and thus expensive enough that it might outweigh the money saved by rooting out the fraud. Private charitable givers can stop giving on a mere intuition or hunch. Government cannot. It is not possible to efficiently identify and cut off insincere people from welfare and related social assistance programs.
    That's bull, I read an article recently where the state was sending hundreds of "dead" people welfare checks. It's because people don't do their jobs, seems to be especially prevalent with government workers.

    But anyway, tying voting power to reliance on welfare would not be some underhanded scheme to reduce fraud. That would not be the point. It would simply be promoting consistency with regard to legal and financial dependence vs. independence.
    Well I disagree, and I think it's wrong. If the economy was better, there would be less people collecting services.


    Many people feel this way, but there is considerable waste and (in my opinion) societal decay when we institute them permanently and statutorily in that, over time, it trains actors and malingerers about the system and how to work it to their advantage. You were right when you said that there will always be poor people, and poor people learn and employ creative ways to get their needs met (benefit-seeking is in their rational best interests). They learn to work the system well enough that it would probably be more expensive to officially catch them faking it and administratively kick them off the rolls than it would to just keep sending them the damn benefits.
    I agree that something needs to be done, but denying people the right to vote is not going to fix the problem anyway. It's just people being angry and wanting the poor to "pay" somehow. Not all people are playing the system. Some people really do need help. I also don't think it would be as complicated as you make it sound to do something to cut down on the fraud and waste. Like taking away the freebies that are not really necessities in regards to waste.


    It's pretty much always partly their fault and partly not their fault. If you assess only their decision making since turning 18, it will look like it's largely their fault, often times. If you ask them about their parents and the household in which they grew up, it will seem like they have been quite a victim of ****ty circumstances most of their lives. Who cares whose fault it is? This stuff is not about blaming anyone.
    It is if you want them to be accountable for being poor in some way.

  3. #533
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    Re: Only property owners should vote

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    Sigh. Voting is a legal matter, not a natural right.
    What is a "natural right?" Who decides what is or is not a "natural right?" You?

    The police cannot enter your home without a warrant, issued by a judge. What is "natural" about that? Are warrants "natural?" How about judges?

    Much in the same way that warrants are a "legal matter" associated with the right to be secure in one's home, voting is a "legal matter" associated with the right of an individual to influence how they are governed.

    Or are you seriously going to argue that the Bill of Rights should be treated as an exhaustive list of rights? That the only people who can decide what is a "natural right" are a bunch of late 18th century politicians, who accepted legalized slavery, and whipping as a valid punishment?

    Or, to put it another way: Disenfranchisement is a form of tyranny. The individual loses the power to hold elected officials accountable; the elected officials have no incentive to protect a disenfranchised voter, including the loss of other rights.

    This is one of many reasons why blacks in the South were so badly abused and discriminated against, and were unable to use the political or legal systems to fight against segregation. They were prevented from voting, which in turn resulted in the loss of so many other rights. I'm slightly stunned that this history of abuse has been so quickly forgotten.

  4. #534
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    Re: Only property owners should vote

    Quote Originally Posted by sawyerloggingon View Post
    How responsible is a convicted felon? We don't let them vote. How responsible is a crack whore with a bunch of illegitimate kids? Should we let her vote? REALLY???
    As I've said, the restriction I would make would be only on doing so much time of civil service. But I would also keep our current restrictions as well.

    I don't think "felons" nor "crackwhores" are likely to be a significant vote anyway, nor do I feel it is right for you or anyone else to determine who is truly a "crackwhore" to begin with. (Felons already lose their right to vote in many situations and I agree with giving those who prove themselves to be more responsible to be able to get that right back.) But yes, we should let either of them vote if they meet the criteria because it isn't for you to judge how irresponsible they are compared to others who would get the right to vote just because they meet your definition of responsibility despite proving constantly how irresponsible they can be, including many celebrities and "successful" individuals who ruin people's lives because of their own greed.
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    Re: Only property owners should vote

    Oh, almost forgot: 19th Amendment. "The right of citizens of the United States to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on account of sex."

    Sure sounds like someone views voting as a right.

  6. #536
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    Re: Only property owners should vote

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    well remember property...can be land or money, anything that value is attached to it.

    if a person has no stake in our nation, meaning paying no income taxes,...do they care if they are raised?.....no.

    people use their vote all the time, to vote for people to promise to take from one and give to the other, using government power.


    tax the rich, ...the rich are evil and greedy, they need to pay their fair share..........use by politicians and people all the time, to drum up votes.....for getting even.
    Yes. They do. My husband and I haven't paid income taxes a good portion of our marriage just due to our relative military service during that time and us having children during every taxable year we have been married. But we still care about what is done. We simply do not lie on our income taxes when we fill them out to pay more than we owe. We care about the real world despite not paying net taxes. It isn't that hard to understand.

    Heck the vast majority of those who don't pay "net income taxes" really don't even realize that they don't because they simply don't look at the difference between what they paid in and what they got back, positive or negative. They don't think to themselves, "I don't pay taxes so why should I care". It is absolutely stupid and/or ignorant to believe they do.
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  7. #537
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    Only property owners should vote

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisL View Post
    That's bull, I read an article recently where the state was sending hundreds of "dead" people welfare checks. It's because people don't do their jobs, seems to be especially prevalent with government workers.
    So you employ more government workers to review what other government workers are supposed to be doing. Like I said, inefficiency is inevitable with this stuff. Either you're inefficiently blowing welfare money or your blowing it at more employees to try to root out inefficiencies.

    I agree that something needs to be done, but denying people the right to vote is not going to fix the problem anyway.
    Bringing voting power into alignment with financial/legal independence is not intended to address welfare fraud.

    It's just people being angry and wanting the poor to "pay" somehow.

    It is if you want them to be accountable for being poor in some way.
    It's not just about the poor. Like the not-so-poor, they are humans and are typically are savvy and no they will not "just starve." The poor are self-interested people like anyone else. What my position here is about... is bad policy.

    Not all people are playing the system. Some people really do need help.
    I know that.

    I also don't think it would be as complicated as you make it sound to do something to cut down on the fraud and waste. Like taking away the freebies that are not really necessities in regards to waste.
    You should look into it, even as a possible career. State divisions of health, social services, public assistance, and social security need thinking people who will come up with more efficient and accurate procedures for reviewing benefit eligibility.

  8. #538
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    Re: Only property owners should vote

    Quote Originally Posted by Visbek View Post
    What is a "natural right?" Who decides what is or is not a "natural right?" You?
    As I have said before..

    No, it's actually pretty easy to determine what is a natural right. The origin of all rights come from body sovereignty over one's own body and extend to everything in which that body acts upon. As long as you are not coercing or otherwise impeding on the agency of others you have the right to do the action.
    You could of course do your own research before posting..

    The police cannot enter your home without a warrant, issued by a judge. What is "natural" about that? Are warrants "natural?" How about judges?
    Nothing. That deals with restrictions on government.

    Much in the same way that warrants are a "legal matter" associated with the right to be secure in one's home, voting is a "legal matter" associated with the right of an individual to influence how they are governed.
    Indeed.

    Or are you seriously going to argue that the Bill of Rights should be treated as an exhaustive list of rights? That the only people who can decide what is a "natural right" are a bunch of late 18th century politicians, who accepted legalized slavery, and whipping as a valid punishment?
    Natural rights is a 17th century concept, not an 18th century concept. The ninth amendment wasn't intended to imply any unwritten legal rights.

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    Re: Only property owners should vote

    Quote Originally Posted by Neomalthusian View Post
    So you employ more government workers to review what other government workers are supposed to be doing. Like I said, inefficiency is inevitable with this stuff. Either you're inefficiently blowing welfare money or your blowing it at more employees to try to root out inefficiencies.
    And so YOUR solution is to limit recipients' voting rights?



    Bringing voting power into alignment with financial/legal independence is not intended to address welfare fraud.
    So what is it for? To prevent more people from voting for the "other" guy? What does this prevent and what is your purpose of wanting to limit their voting rights?


    It's not just about the poor. Like the not-so-poor, they are humans and are typically are savvy and no they will not "just starve." The poor are self-interested people like anyone else. What my position here is about... is bad policy.



    I know that.
    That is not true. There have been plenty of instances throughout history where people have starved.



    You should look into it, even as a possible career. State divisions of health, social services, public assistance, and social security need thinking people who will come up with more efficient and accurate procedures for reviewing benefit eligibility.
    I'll assume you're being facetious here.

  10. #540
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    Re: Only property owners should vote

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    The origin of all rights come from body sovereignty over one's own body and extend to everything in which that body acts upon.
    I guess the ratifiers of the 19th Amendment either missed that bit, or didn't care.

    Or, that "life, liberty and the pursuit of property / happiness" doesn't rely in any way upon political representation.

    Yes, we should definitely buy our right to vote with tax dollars.


    Natural rights is a 17th century concept, not an 18th century concept.
    I was referring to the framers of the Constitution.

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