View Poll Results: Should owning property be a requirement to vote

Voters
100. You may not vote on this poll
  • yes, only property owners should vote

    10 10.00%
  • no, let everyone vote

    90 90.00%
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Thread: Only property owners should vote

  1. #411
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    Re: Only property owners should vote

    Quote Originally Posted by sawyerloggingon View Post
    There are libs pushing for HS students under 18 getting the vote, it just gets worse and worse.
    High-schoolers deserve the right to vote | The Forest Lake Times
    You know what cracks me up about your outrage over this? The high schoolers are using exactly the same rationale as you, just to establish their right to vote.

    "Most 16- and 17-year-olds (80 percent, according to one survey) work at some point before they graduate. This means they pay income taxes. Paying taxes without a say in how the money is spent is a gross injustice. The Revolutionary War was fought on the premise that people should not be taxed if they are not fairly represented in government."

    I have no idea why you tag them as "liberals," as their agenda is very specific and seems non-partisan to me -- lower the drinking age, lower the voting age and eliminate curfews.

    Maybe you should change it from the GOP to the GOMLP -- the "Get Off My Lawn Party."

  2. #412
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    Re: Only property owners should vote

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Poor people in America are MORE likely to be obese. err... no. Here in the U.S. we have a wide gap, sure; but that is not because our poor are so poor, it is because our wealthy are so wealthy. The size of the gap itself is irrelevant. I'll talk about healthcare in Europe, sure. We can talk about the fact that the creation of a single-payer healthcare system causes that single entitlement to dominate and explode government spending until dramatic cuts are forced due to fiscal crises. We can talk about how the American system (thus far, as deeply flawed as it is) produces better survival rates for people with serious illness such as cancer, probably due to the fact that Americans have more consistent access to better treatment for chronic diseases. For a single example, of Americans with Schizophrenia, 60% receive the latest generation of medication - compared to 10% of Germans and 20% of Spaniards. And Europeans still end up paying significant out-of-pocket costs, because the movement on that continent is towards introducing market reforms, not towards increasing government expenditure. Go ahead and bring up the WHO report, which gives us low grades for "fairness" and "equitability" I'll just point out that the same report lists America #1 at "responsiveness to patientsí needs". the trust fund rich. 85% of America's millionaires didn't inherit their money - they are first generation rich, mostly successful small business owners. And democrats do make it explicit that they view their support for wealth-transfer programs as an electoral advantage. Yeah... when I look at "who has class" in this society, I see that 85% of America's millionaires are self-made, mostly small business owners, and that the vast majority of our poor have become not just dependent, but developed a sense of entitlement towards that dependency. You can get classless wealthy people, sure; money just makes us better able to express what we already are. But when people point out that the left in this country benefits electorally from having the government encourage destructive behavior, they are absolutely correct.
    More CON games, the very sources you cite contradict most of what you say... you have to cherry pick the hell out of them to get close to your conclusions. the FRAC report you cite says right off the bat noor nutrition, poor economic status and obesity is a very complicated subject calling it 'one of the most common myths'

    Your CATO report on page for ranks the USA 37th behind EVERY major country in Europe.

    You can cherry pick a disease or two like cancer, where the USA has made it a huge money maker- ask the 'Cancer Treatment Centers of America' but that by no means all Americans have access to that sort of intense medical care. You need to mention the small portion of cancer patients measured was survive for 5 years after initial diagnosis. Not long term survival.

    Mental illness is a puzzle, so many who commit so horrid mass murders have grave unaddressed mental issues it makes you wonder just who all these people are who are getting the new drugs- certainly not the poor. The big pharma monopoly in this country does attract most award winning researchers but for profit not for benefit. (we also should note the drugs they develop sell for far less overseas than here- the FDA has several times threatened folks who obtain the same drug from a far cheaper overseas source.) it isn't the other governments subsidize the drugs, they make deals that the Big Pharma companies can charge only so much for the drug in those other countries, yet our government is forbidden to do just that!

    Your very own CATO report has many advantages going to overseas systems, even if the world view of that institute isn't progressive.

    You cherry picked a few bits of the big picture.... just another CON game....

    Given the USA spends twice as much as measured by GNP and our's is HUGE compared to the other nations we sure don't seem to to gain much.

  3. #413
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    Re: Only property owners should vote

    Quote Originally Posted by Neomalthusian View Post
    So is the examination of eligibility for welfare and related public assistance programs.
    People who are collecting services are not usually mentally challenged. We have social security disability for such things. Welfare is for people who have children and can't work for whatever reason. Maybe they were collecting unemployment benefits and ran out and still can't find a job because the economy is still terrible as far as getting a job goes?

    So who determines who is a capable voter and who is not? There will be a test I assume? God, that even sounds stupid. If this was ever allowed to happen, the government would stripping rights from citizens left and right. Once you allow them that, you are opening a Pandora's box. It is retarded.

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    Re: Only property owners should vote

    Quote Originally Posted by radcen View Post
    Are you positive that was their intent? Did they intend property owners because they were property owners, or did they intend property owners because property owners were the primary taxpayers supporting the government?

    If the latter, which I suspect is the case... in part because "no taxation without representation" was a popular mantra of the day... then the concept expanded every time the federal government instituted a new tax.




    If you buy a gallon of gasoline, you've paid federal tax. There you go.




    Why unemployment? Even though submitted by your previous employer(s), it was still a part of the cost of your overall compensation. Hence, you did pay into it yourself.

    Why (automatically) food stamps? For many it's merely a supplement for people who have low-paying jobs and still otherwise pay taxes.




    No. To be honest, I'd bet the percentage of people on welfare who vote is fairly small.
    Paying a gas tax is for roads. IMO paying an income tax that funds things like a standing army would be a better indication as to if you are contributing to America or leeching from America.

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    Re: Only property owners should vote

    Quote Originally Posted by Visbek View Post
    You know what cracks me up about your outrage over this? The high schoolers are using exactly the same rationale as you, just to establish their right to vote.

    "Most 16- and 17-year-olds (80 percent, according to one survey) work at some point before they graduate. This means they pay income taxes. Paying taxes without a say in how the money is spent is a gross injustice. The Revolutionary War was fought on the premise that people should not be taxed if they are not fairly represented in government."

    I have no idea why you tag them as "liberals," as their agenda is very specific and seems non-partisan to me -- lower the drinking age, lower the voting age and eliminate curfews.

    Maybe you should change it from the GOP to the GOMLP -- the "Get Off My Lawn Party."
    Awesome, love it!

  6. #416
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    Re: Only property owners should vote

    Quote Originally Posted by sawyerloggingon View Post
    What I would propose if I had the power would be to go back to the original voting law cited in the OP and start from there. First off I would reinstate the vote for blacks and women, that's a no brainer. After that I would consider age, education and contribution to society factors. Where exactly it would end up I'm not sure but I am sure welfare recipients would not get to vote.
    Statements like these are precisely why suffrage should be universal.

    You don't get to pick and choose who gets to vote, based on your own assumptions of how those people are going to vote. First you'll disenfranchise TANF recipients, then SNAP recipients, then anyone below the poverty level, then anyone whose income is 50% greater than the poverty level, then anyone who live in cities who tend to vote for Democrats....

    And again: The sad thing is that what motivates you is that conservatives and Republicans have no interest in representing the poor, let alone helping them deal with poverty. You might make a good case that an improperly designed safety net results in welfare traps. However, those goals clash with the obviously punitive desire to curtail their rights.

    I.e. if you want disadvantaged people to start voting for you, why not stop bashing them like they're subhuman, and figure out policies that can help them deal with or climb out of poverty?

  7. #417
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    Re: Only property owners should vote

    Quote Originally Posted by Visbek View Post
    You know what cracks me up about your outrage over this? The high schoolers are using exactly the same rationale as you, just to establish their right to vote.

    "Most 16- and 17-year-olds (80 percent, according to one survey) work at some point before they graduate. This means they pay income taxes. Paying taxes without a say in how the money is spent is a gross injustice. The Revolutionary War was fought on the premise that people should not be taxed if they are not fairly represented in government."

    I have no idea why you tag them as "liberals," as their agenda is very specific and seems non-partisan to me -- lower the drinking age, lower the voting age and eliminate curfews.

    Maybe you should change it from the GOP to the GOMLP -- the "Get Off My Lawn Party."
    You don't pay fed taxes until you reach a certain income level. Working after school flipping burgers does not reach that threshold, you get virtually all your taxes back. To be a tax payer worthy of voting you should be a net contributor which a very large portion of this society is not. 47% of America pays no income tax and they should not vote until they do.

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    Re: Only property owners should vote

    Quote Originally Posted by Visbek View Post
    Statements like these are precisely why suffrage should be universal.

    You don't get to pick and choose who gets to vote, based on your own assumptions of how those people are going to vote. First you'll disenfranchise TANF recipients, then SNAP recipients, then anyone below the poverty level, then anyone whose income is 50% greater than the poverty level, then anyone who live in cities who tend to vote for Democrats....

    And again: The sad thing is that what motivates you is that conservatives and Republicans have no interest in representing the poor, let alone helping them deal with poverty. You might make a good case that an improperly designed safety net results in welfare traps. However, those goals clash with the obviously punitive desire to curtail their rights.

    I.e. if you want disadvantaged people to start voting for you, why not stop bashing them like they're subhuman, and figure out policies that can help them deal with or climb out of poverty?
    The best way to help the poor is to have a thriving economy which intelligent informed voters would be much better at creating than some welfare queen with a house full of illegitimate children. She has proven poor decision making skills and should not be allowed to vote based on that alone.

  9. #419
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    Re: Only property owners should vote

    Quote Originally Posted by sawyerloggingon View Post
    Paying a gas tax is for roads. IMO paying an income tax that funds things like a standing army would be a better indication as to if you are contributing to America or leeching from America.
    I don't know whether to or .

    The gasoline tax is still a federal tax, regardless it's stated intent. There are a myriad of other federal taxes that everybody pays... some out in the open, some hidden in the cost of the product or service... some with specific intent, many with none. This was just one example.

    Let's see, so far you've been willing to carve out exceptions for...

    - Military members under 21, they would qualify
    - People are aren't paying the 'right' federal tax, they wouldn't qualify,
    - and something else that escapes me at the moment.

    Really, the longer this thread goes, the more you thwart your own intentions. Why don't you just admit that what you really want is a voting block of people like you so that things will be done how you'd like them done?
    If you claim sexual harassment to be wrong, yet you defend anyone on your side for any reason,
    then you are a hypocrite and everything you say on the matter is just babble.

  10. #420
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    Re: Only property owners should vote

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisL View Post
    People who are collecting services are not usually mentally challenged. We have social security disability for such things. Welfare is for people who have children and can't work for whatever reason. Maybe they were collecting unemployment benefits and ran out and still can't find a job because the economy is still terrible as far as getting a job goes?
    I'm not saying you have to be employed to be able to vote. I am saying voting should be commensurate with how independently you manage your own life and affairs. You can be independently broke as hell (meaning your in a **** situation but you're not accepting a status a dependence on the collective), and these people should get a full vote. Some people who accept dependence are only accepting, say, maybe 10% dependence (i.e. they still pay for 90% of their own stuff and manage 90% of their own affairs), and these folks should therefore get 9/10ths of of one vote.

    So who determines who is a capable voter and who is not? There will be a test I assume? God, that even sounds stupid. If this was ever allowed to happen, the government would stripping rights from citizens left and right.
    Government administers these welfare programs, and welfare programs are not rights, they're entitlements. Applying for welfare is an act of saying "I can't do it on my own right now, I need to depend on the collective to get by right now," which is akin to a partial reversion to the dependency of being a minor. Minors have rights too, but not the same ones as independent adults, and for good reason. To be consistent, reversion to a status of dependency should be commensurate with reduced rights. That's what being a dependent is all about. That should extend to voting. We don't let minors participate fully in democratic process and for good and obvious reason. Not giving societal dependents full voting power makes total sense too, as a most basic protection against the majority voting themselves money from the treasury.

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