View Poll Results: Should owning property be a requirement to vote

Voters
100. You may not vote on this poll
  • yes, only property owners should vote

    10 10.00%
  • no, let everyone vote

    90 90.00%
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Thread: Only property owners should vote

  1. #321
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    Re: Only property owners should vote

    Quote Originally Posted by Neomalthusian View Post
    If you get no government assistance, you meet your own needs independently....
    What about tax breaks? If I'm getting a tax break on the interest payments for my mortgage, is that not a form of "government assistance?"

    How about farm subsidies? I'm pretty sure if we disenfranchised every farmer who takes a subsidy, it'll be a lot easier to reduce the costs of the farm bill.

    How about public transportation? Millions of Americans rely on public transportation systems that usually run at a loss. Do you lose the right to vote if you don't own a car?

    Oh, wait. If you own a car, then you're using highways built, owned and operated by the government. Why isn't that classified as a handout?



    Children get no vote because they're fully dependents of others.
    The reason why children don't vote is because they have not reached the age of majority, and are not considered mature enough to accept the full range of rights and responsibilities.


    Adults on public assistance are usually somewhere in the gray area, so their votes should be weighted.
    So a veteran who can't find a job, and goes on food stamps, is a dependent sort of like little child? Someone who gets in a car accident and is paralyzed from the waist down ought to lose their vote, because they can't work and must depend on others?

    What about a 58 year old factory worker, whose company closes the factory he works in and moves to Mexico? Should he lose the right to vote because he chooses to collect unemployment in order to make ends meet? Even if he is willing to work, and jobs are not available?

    There is no "gray area." Receiving TANF, SNAP or unemployment insurance does not mean you are a lazy slob who refuses to work and will vote for Democrats forevermore. For many people, it's the only way they can keep their families fed.


    The sad thing about all this is: If conservatives / Republicans could actually draw voters with their policies, they wouldn't be looking for excuses to disenfranchise citizens.

    The premise here is that people will vote in their own self-interest. Why don't conservatives and Republicans offer policies, then, that help the poor -- instead of finding reasons to bar them from voting? It sure sounds like you're just writing off the poor altogether, instead of thinking of them as actual human beings and actual citizens, with genuine political interests.

  2. #322
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    Re: Only property owners should vote

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisL View Post
    Obviously, by the question you posed, you don't understand the concept of RIGHTS.
    I do understand the common misconception. I reject it. It's silly. Now, once again, can you give us a rationality for why an incompetent should be allowed to vote?

    Or it you'd rather, a rationality for why you'd allow an unqualified person to drive your child's school bus, or fill your cavities, or neuter your cat, or inspect your food, or bear arms for the nation?
    Quod scripsi, scripsi

  3. #323
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    Re: Only property owners should vote

    Quote Originally Posted by Oftencold View Post
    I do understand the common misconception. I reject it. It's silly. Now, once again, can you give us a rationality for why an incompetent should be allowed to vote?

    Or it you'd rather, a rationality for why you'd allow an unqualified person to drive your child's school bus, or fill your cavities, or neuter your cat, or inspect your food, bear arms for the nation?
    You don't understand rights. It isn't silly. It's to make sure there is not taxation without representation. It's to make sure that everyone is treated equally regardless of what YOU might think about them.

    You can't test everyone for their competence. It would be expensive, fraud-ridden and not accurate.

  4. #324
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    Re: Only property owners should vote

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisL View Post
    The concept is utterly ridiculous and would disenfranchise most poor people. Obviously there's a lot of hatred here for the poor. It's quite sad and pathetic.
    It's not wise to base the vote on how much stuff one might have. It's equally unwise to hand out stuff, or promise to, contingent on a vote. When our government is given to appealing to shallow interests, we can expect a shallow response. That's the kind of thing that prompts a reaction such as this thread. Neither approach addresses the problem.

  5. #325
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    Re: Only property owners should vote

    Quote Originally Posted by Visbek View Post
    What about tax breaks? If I'm getting a tax break on the interest payments for my mortgage, is that not a form of "government assistance?"

    How about farm subsidies? I'm pretty sure if we disenfranchised every farmer who takes a subsidy, it'll be a lot easier to reduce the costs of the farm bill.

    How about public transportation? Millions of Americans rely on public transportation systems that usually run at a loss. Do you lose the right to vote if you don't own a car?

    Oh, wait. If you own a car, then you're using highways built, owned and operated by the government. Why isn't that classified as a handout?




    The reason why children don't vote is because they have not reached the age of majority, and are not considered mature enough to accept the full range of rights and responsibilities.



    So a veteran who can't find a job, and goes on food stamps, is a dependent sort of like little child? Someone who gets in a car accident and is paralyzed from the waist down ought to lose their vote, because they can't work and must depend on others?

    What about a 58 year old factory worker, whose company closes the factory he works in and moves to Mexico? Should he lose the right to vote because he chooses to collect unemployment in order to make ends meet? Even if he is willing to work, and jobs are not available?

    There is no "gray area." Receiving TANF, SNAP or unemployment insurance does not mean you are a lazy slob who refuses to work and will vote for Democrats forevermore. For many people, it's the only way they can keep their families fed.


    The sad thing about all this is: If conservatives / Republicans could actually draw voters with their policies, they wouldn't be looking for excuses to disenfranchise citizens.

    The premise here is that people will vote in their own self-interest. Why don't conservatives and Republicans offer policies, then, that help the poor -- instead of finding reasons to bar them from voting? It sure sounds like you're just writing off the poor altogether, instead of thinking of them as actual human beings and actual citizens, with genuine political interests.
    Lot of great points here.

  6. #326
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    Re: Only property owners should vote

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisL View Post
    . . ..

    You can't test everyone for their competence. It would be expensive, fraud-ridden and not accurate.
    Millions of school children would hold you to be a saint.

    So, how do we manage to test people for competence in order to drive a car?

    That seems to be a lot more difficult to me than testing people once in their lives for basic literacy and awareness of how the government functions.

    Again I say unto thee, you are making platitudinous statements of a vague political philosophy, not the reason which should underpin it.

    I'll try again. What is the advantage to Society in allowing people to control the government who do not understand how it operates? What advantage could it provide, rationally and with a high positive expectation, to them?
    Quod scripsi, scripsi

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    Re: Only property owners should vote

    Quote Originally Posted by Oftencold View Post
    Millions of school children would hold you to be a saint.

    So, how do we manage to test people for competence in order to drive a car?

    That seems to be a lot more difficult to me than testing people once in their lives for basic literacy and awareness of how the government functions.

    Again I say unto thee, you are making platitudinous statements of a vague political philosophy, not the reason which should underpin it.

    I'll try again. What is the advantage to Society in allowing people to control the government who do not understand how it operates? What advantage could it provide, rationally and with a high positive expectation, to them?
    See, you are confused. Driving is NOT a right. See how that works? EVERYONE has rights here in America. That's one of the things that makes our country so special and great. I refuse to let a few selfish asses ruin it.

  8. #328
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    Re: Only property owners should vote

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisL View Post
    It's not a right in the Constitution, like voting.
    You're blurring the lines here. Marriage isn't a right either. Abortion isn't a right either as neither were addressed in the constitution. If you're going to judge rights only by the Bill of Rights then the issue is much bigger and broader, since America for the past 100 years at least has not been following the rights as presented in the Constitution but have created rights through laws which over ride the Constitution.

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisL View Post
    The only way the government is getting away with this is because they are calling it a "tax." If you don't have health insurance, you don't get thrown in jail, you get a tax penalty.
    That may be true - and the SCOTUS agreed with that assessment. The problem here is "rights" are a very broad set of terms. Technically you're correct but in reality people believe their rights are much broader and encompass many other things because they were either taught that or they believe laws empower them with rights that they may or may not have.
    I think if Thomas Jefferson were looking down, the author of the Bill of Rights, on whats being proposed here, hed agree with it. He would agree that the First Amendment cannot be absolute. - Chuck Schumer (D). Yet, Madison and Mason wrote the Bill of Rights, according to Sheila Jackson Lee, 400 years ago. Yup, it's a fact.


  9. #329
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    Re: Only property owners should vote

    A debate such as this will be overrun by emotionalism.
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
    "Fly-over" country voted, and The Donald is now POTUS.

  10. #330
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    Re: Only property owners should vote

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisL View Post
    See, you are confused. Driving is NOT a right. See how that works? EVERYONE has rights here in America. That's one of the things that makes our country so special and great. I refuse to let a few selfish asses ruin it.
    Why is driving not a right, and voting is? Perhaps we have a vital interest in changing the laws to prevent incompetents from voting. I certainly think, (note the verb) that we do.

    By the way, your example of drivers' licenses illustrates the fallacy of your earlier assertion that everyone is treated equally before the law.

    But even leaving aside drivers' licenses, you seem to imagine that general civics and literacy testing would be some sort of immense challenge. And yet, the State and Federal Government mandate repeated standardized testing of all school children. Could you explain please why this is not considered prohibitively difficult whilst general civics and literacy testing would be?

    And I still await in rapt anticipation for you to delineate the rationale for allowing incompetents to vote. Perhaps I need to elucidate? Simply saying something like "everyone has the right," is a platitude at best, and a slogan more likely. What I'm inviting you to attempt is to explain the benefits, the logical argument, the profit to be had for us all in allowing incompetent operators to exercise control over our government. Please do provide a response of this nature that I might consider its merits.
    Quod scripsi, scripsi

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