View Poll Results: Who is the best Pope ever?

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  • Francis is the Best

    15 34.88%
  • Benedict XVI is the Best

    1 2.33%
  • John Paul II is the Best

    8 18.60%
  • Other (Post your answer)

    19 44.19%
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Thread: Best Pope Ever?

  1. #61
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    Re: Best Pope Ever?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    For instance, within the incorporation of local traditions that did not mesh well with Church doctrine, Pope Gregory responded by saying:

    "For in these days the Church corrects some things strictly, and allows others out of leniency; others again she deliberately glosses over and tolerates and by so doing often succeeds in checking an evil of which she disapproves. But all who comes to the Faith are to be warned against doing these things, and should any subsequently be guilty of them, they are to be forbidden to receive the Communion of the Blood of our Lord. For while these offenses may to some extent be condoned in those who acted in ignorance, they must be severely punished in those who presume to sin knowingly." Furthermore, he asked that they not destroy the Briton's heathenish temples, as was expected, but convert them instead.
    So from what I see, Pope Gregory says that there are different degrees of evil. Nothing new there. Furthermore, he says that those exceedingly evil acts should be punished.

    For a modern example, let's look at the Mass and reception of Communion. Compare those who dance at Mass (forbidden) and those who engage in homosexual acts (also forbidden). One is expressly forbidden from receiving Communion, while the other would be welcome to Communion. I don't see anything new or changing here.

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

  2. #62
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    Re: Best Pope Ever?

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    So from what I see, Pope Gregory says that there are different degrees of evil. Nothing new there. Furthermore, he says that those exceedingly evil acts should be punished.

    For a modern example, let's look at the Mass and reception of Communion. Compare those who dance at Mass (forbidden) and those who engage in homosexual acts (also forbidden). One is expressly forbidden from receiving Communion, while the other would be welcome to Communion. I don't see anything new or changing here.
    Correct, but he asked that the normal actions of the Church be paused or changed in order to bring in a new flock. Sacrifice of cattle was to be permitted along with others.
    Michael J Petrilli-"Is School Choice Enough?"-A response to the recent timidity of American conservatives toward education reform. https://nationalaffairs.com/publicat...-choice-enough

  3. #63
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    Re: Best Pope Ever?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Correct, but he asked that the normal actions of the Church be paused or changed in order to bring in a new flock. Sacrifice of cattle was to be permitted along with others.
    Rites are adapted to local cultures. For example, there are plenty of things that are allowed at Mass in Africa that are expressly forbidden at Mass in Europe, but this is due to differences in the way that cultures perceive things.

    But what we are talking about are disciplines. These are things that can change. For example, priests being celibate is a discipline. Eastern Churches do not require this. The doctrine of only allowing male priests, however, cannot change. That is doctrine.

    Doctrines cannot change, disciplines can.

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

  4. #64
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    Re: Best Pope Ever?

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    As a non-Catholic, can you tell me what exactly the philosophy of Christ is? Because you seem to think he permits everything.
    Well, you could start with "love thy neighbor as thyself." He didn't say, "but only if they are straight and have the same beliefs that you do."

    Then there is "Do unto others as you would have others do unto you." He didn't say, "unless, of course, they are different from you."

    Then there is "Inasmuch as ye have done unto the least of these..." He didn't add, "but the damn freeloaders need some tough love from time to time."

    I suppose we could start there.
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  5. #65
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    Re: Best Pope Ever?

    Quote Originally Posted by nota bene View Post
    I'm not sure that this is so. I will admit that I haven't been keeping up and that I haven't read the interview published by the Jesuits that is exciting so many, so I don't know. But I did wake up to find a couple of e-mails from a Catholic friend, and here's one article he linked that explains how the media are getting it wrong: The media are getting Pope Francis wrong, again
    Can't say I'm surprised that the media lied. Thanks for the link.
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  6. #66
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    Re: Best Pope Ever?

    Hebrews 13:8

    King James Version (KJV)


    8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
    If something was wrong yesterday, then what makes it right today?
    Redneck, hillbilly, fundie, Bible thumper, cracker, split tails, geezer, loon, xenophobe, islamaphobe, and homophobe are not words of tolerance.

  7. #67
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    Re: Best Pope Ever?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    Well, you could start with "love thy neighbor as thyself." He didn't say, "but only if they are straight and have the same beliefs that you do."

    Then there is "Do unto others as you would have others do unto you." He didn't say, "unless, of course, they are different from you."

    Then there is "Inasmuch as ye have done unto the least of these..." He didn't add, "but the damn freeloaders need some tough love from time to time."

    I suppose we could start there.
    Remember what he said to the adulteress: "Go, and now sin no more." He never said that what you are doing is just fine and continue on. Not at all. In the same way, the Church does not say to do evil unto evildoers or judge them. However, the Church is not going to say that what they are doing is just fine. There is a moral law, and the Church has the job of teaching it to the world.

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

  8. #68
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    Re: Best Pope Ever?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    Well, you could start with "love thy neighbor as thyself." He didn't say, "but only if they are straight and have the same beliefs that you do."

    Then there is "Do unto others as you would have others do unto you." He didn't say, "unless, of course, they are different from you."

    Then there is "Inasmuch as ye have done unto the least of these..." He didn't add, "but the damn freeloaders need some tough love from time to time."

    I suppose we could start there.
    Actually He said, 'the poor will be with us always.'

    He also said, 'go thy way and sin no more.'

    Reality is that people no longer want to hear what they need to hear. They want to hear what they want to hear. Too bad the church is no longer willing to uphold the teachings of Jesus Christ who said that 'eunuchs from birth' should not marry.
    Redneck, hillbilly, fundie, Bible thumper, cracker, split tails, geezer, loon, xenophobe, islamaphobe, and homophobe are not words of tolerance.

  9. #69
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    Re: Best Pope Ever?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    I think that would have been incredibly counter-productive to not change at all, doctrine or emphasis. I know I approach this from a different lens, but even if they have changed their views or emphasis on those views, as any prudent organization should consider doing from time to time, it still provides moral order to the world, your atheism notwithstanding.
    Well, if you think covering for pedophile priests and promoting the transmission of AIDS in Africa is moral order, I guess...
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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  10. #70
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    Re: Best Pope Ever?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    Well, if you think covering for pedophile priests and promoting the transmission of AIDS in Africa is moral order, I guess...
    If the church embraces homosexuality, then it will only be half as bad when the priests go after the little boys. HOHOHO.
    Redneck, hillbilly, fundie, Bible thumper, cracker, split tails, geezer, loon, xenophobe, islamaphobe, and homophobe are not words of tolerance.

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