View Poll Results: What Does the 2nd Amendment Actually Say?

Voters
51. You may not vote on this poll
  • You can have any gun you want and no one can stop you.

    17 33.33%
  • You can have any ARM you want. Why stop at guns? Knives, grenades, nunchucks, tanks...it's all good!

    10 19.61%
  • Yeah, you can have a gun, but there are limits to that right, like every other right.

    21 41.18%
  • You can have a gun so you can join in a militia instead of having a standing army.

    10 19.61%
  • You can have an 18th century single-shot firearm and no one can stop you.

    8 15.69%
  • You and your gun cannot be singled out by the government, it has to follow it's own laws

    8 15.69%
  • As a principle you should have the right to a gun, but we're not going to explain how.

    4 7.84%
  • It's purposefully vague.

    5 9.80%
  • Other

    10 19.61%
Multiple Choice Poll.
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Thread: What Does the 2nd Amendment Actually Say?

  1. #51
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    Re: What Does the 2nd Amendment Actually Say?

    Quote Originally Posted by Willie Orwontee View Post
    You are demanding we accept an absurd premise . . . You need to understand that the framers wrote the 2nd Amendment within the context of the Lockean rights theory the founders / framers embraced.
    Well, help me understand how much a right can be or not be limited. Could the federal government write a law that said that a blind person could not carry a concealed weapon? If not, could a state or local government? Or is that infringing on their right?

    I'm not trying to be facetious, I really just want to understand where limits on rights can be placed.

  2. #52
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    Re: What Does the 2nd Amendment Actually Say?

    Quote Originally Posted by aberrant85 View Post
    Well, help me understand how much a right can be or not be limited. Could the federal government write a law that said that a blind person could not carry a concealed weapon? If not, could a state or local government? Or is that infringing on their right?

    I'm not trying to be facetious, I really just want to understand where limits on rights can be placed.

    My rights end where yours begin.


    My right to carry a gun ends where it would infringe on your rights.


    That is how fundamental rights are measured.


    Restrictions to fundamental rights are usually done under Strict Constitutional Scrutiny. This is a specific form of review with specific points.

    1. The restriction must be NECESSARY to the preservation and function of society; not merely preferred or desired.
    2. The restriction must narrowly construed... that is very specific rather than broad.
    3. It must be the LEAST RESTRICTIVE possible way of achieving the necessary goal in question.


    Very very few gun laws meet this criteria.

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    Re: What Does the 2nd Amendment Actually Say?

    Quote Originally Posted by aberrant85 View Post
    Gun control is a hot issue, but it all comes down to the 2nd Amendment, which reads:

    "A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."

    But what does that sentence actually guarantee?
    why don't we hear from the very people who wrote and debated the 2nd amendment

    “Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote!”
    Benjamin Franklin

    “I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them.” – Speech in the Virginia Ratifying Convention, June 14, 1778

    That a well-regulated militia, composed of the body of the people, trained to arms, is the proper, natural and safe defense of a free state; that standing armies, in time of peace, should be avoided as dangerous to liberty; and that, in all cases, the military should be under strict subordination to, and governed by, the civil power.” – Virginia Declaration of Rights, June 12, 1776
    George Mason, co-author of the Second Amendment

    A militia when properly formed are in fact the people themselvesand include all men capable of bearing arms. . . To preserve liberty it is essential that the whole body of people always possess arms… The mind that aims at a select militia, must be influenced by a truly anti-republican principle.” – Letters From the Federal Farmer to the Republican, Letter XVIII, January 25, 1788

    “No free government was ever founded, or ever preserved its liberty, without uniting the characters of the citizen and soldier in those destined for the defense of the state…such area well-regulated militia, composed of the freeholders, citizen and husbandman, who take up arms to preserve their property, as individuals, and their rights as freemen.” – Richard Henry Lee, State Gazette (Charleston), September 8, 1788
    Richard Henry Lee

    And that the said Constitution be never construed to authorize Congress to infringe the just liberty of the press, or the rights of conscience; or to prevent the people of the United States, who are peaceable citizens, from keeping their own arms; or to raise standing armies, unless necessary for the defense of the United States, or of some one or more of them; or to prevent the people from petitioning, in a peaceable and orderly manner, the federal legislature, for a redress of grievances; or to subject the people to unreasonable searches and seizures of their persons, papers or possessions.” – Debates of the Massachusetts Convention of February 6, 1788; Debates and Proceedings in the Convention of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts, 1788 (Pierce & Hale, eds., Boston, 1850)
    Samuel Adams

    A free people ought not only to be armed, but disciplined; to which end a uniform and well-digested plan is requisite; and their safety and interest require that they should promote such manufactories as tend to render them independent on others for essential, particularly for military, supplies.” – Speech in the United States Congress, January 8, 1790; George Washington: A Collection, compiled and edited by W.B. Allen (Indianapolis: Liberty Fund, 1988), Chapter 11
    George Washington

    “[W]hat country can preserve its liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms.” – Letter to William Stephens Smith, November 13, 1787; The Works of Thomas Jefferson, Federal Edition (New York and London, G.P. Putnam’s Sons, 1904-5) Vol. 5

    No freeman shall be debarred the use of arms [within his own lands].” – Proposed Constitution for Virginia – Fair Copy, Section IV: Rights, Private and Public, June 1776; The Works of Thomas Jefferson, Federal Edition, Editor: Paul Leicester Ford, (New York and London, G.P. Putnam’s Sons, 1904-5); Vol. 2
    Thomas Jefferson

    “The supposed quietude of a good man allures the ruffian; while on the other hand, arms like laws discourage and keep the invader and the plunderer in awe, and preserve order in the world as well as property. The balance of power is the scale of peace. The same balance would be preserved were all the world destitute of arms, for all would be alike; but since some will not, others dare not lay them aside. And while a single nation refuses to lay them down, it is proper that all should keep them up. Horrid mischief would ensue were one half the world deprived of the use of them.” – Thoughts on Defensive War, 1775; The Writings of Thomas Paine, Collected and Edited by Moncure Daniel Conway (New York: G.P. Putnam’s Sons, 1894) Volume 1, Chapter XII
    Thomas Paine

    “O sir, we should have fine times, indeed, if, to punish tyrants, it were only sufficient to assemble the people! Your arms, wherewith you could defend yourselves, are gone; and you have no longer an aristocratical, no longer a democratical spirit. Did you ever read of any revolution in a nation, brought about by the punishment of those in power, inflicted by those who had no power at all?” – Speech in the Virginia Ratifying Convention, June 5, 1778; “Debates in the Several State Conventions on the Adoption of the Federal Constitution,” Jonathan Elliot, editor, vol. 3, pp. 50-53
    The great object is, that every man be armed … Every one who is able may have a gun.”– Debates in the Several State Conventions on Adoption of the Federal Constitution, Jonathan Elliot, ed. 1836, vol. 3, p. 386
    Patrick Henry


    it is pretty clear what they meant
    Last edited by trfjr; 09-15-13 at 10:02 PM.

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    Re: What Does the 2nd Amendment Actually Say?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    My rights end where yours begin.


    My right to carry a gun ends where it would infringe on your rights.


    That is how fundamental rights are measured.


    Restrictions to fundamental rights are usually done under Strict Constitutional Scrutiny. This is a specific form of review with specific points.

    1. The restriction must be NECESSARY to the preservation and function of society; not merely preferred or desired.
    2. The restriction must narrowly construed... that is very specific rather than broad.
    3. It must be the LEAST RESTRICTIVE possible way of achieving the necessary goal in question.


    Very very few gun laws meet this criteria.
    nicely put!

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    Re: What Does the 2nd Amendment Actually Say?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    Just going by what it says (the letter of the law) is not enough. You must also go by the Spirit of the Law. Which was to have the citizenry as well armed as the governments active military. Which means the Citizens should be allowed to have anything that is commonly used by the active military.
    And therein lies the problem. That is an interpretation and that is what the Supreme Court does. The recent Citizens United decision that Corporations are people doth diminish the credibility of the interpreting icon however. Interpretation doth not seem to be the venue of the lowly dolts or whatever.

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    Re: What Does the 2nd Amendment Actually Say?

    this is why when you hear a politician say its my moral duty or my feeling when it comes to doing something.....look out !....for rights violations

  7. #57
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    Re: What Does the 2nd Amendment Actually Say?

    Quote Originally Posted by aberrant85 View Post
    But certainly if you want to talk about the intent of the founding fathers you must accept that they wrote the 2nd amendment in the context of the 18th century. They wouldn't have had any idea about how it would be applied in the future.
    that's moronic. their view was that civilians have the same weapons as regulars. You seem to think that the state of the art should continue for the government but citizens be mired in 18th century technology.

    Only the very dishonest say that the right does not encompass change in weaponry. If you actually understand the purpose then the weapons don't matter.

    btw do you think the first amendment is limited to churches that existed in the 18th century or to say manual printing presses?



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    Re: What Does the 2nd Amendment Actually Say?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    Who the **** are you to tell me what I've been saying when you obviously haven't read a goddamn thing I've written? You are wrong, and a liar, and if you are a man of any honor I await your retraction and apology for slurs against my character.

    The second amendment is irrelevant to an individual right to possess and own weapons, as you yourself demonstrated with several quotes from caselaw. Which is why I maintain that the second amendment's original meaning relates only to a militia right.
    you are being schooled by a guy who clearly understands the topic far better than you do. As someone who has actually lectured to peer groups about this amendment I can tell you Willie is correct.

    that you are having a meltdown over that comment proves that he is right and all your posts on this subject is just nothing more than methane. Methane because its incendiary and stinks



  9. #59
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    Re: What Does the 2nd Amendment Actually Say?

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    that's moronic. their view was that civilians have the same weapons as regulars. You seem to think that the state of the art should continue for the government but citizens be mired in 18th century technology.

    Only the very dishonest say that the right does not encompass change in weaponry. If you actually understand the purpose then the weapons don't matter.

    btw do you think the first amendment is limited to churches that existed in the 18th century or to say manual printing presses?
    Well, Jefferson thought the constitution should be rewritten by each new generation. And to begin with, the founding fathers never had a hive mind. They were from different regions, with different constituents, and they compromised as much as any generation. I think automatically falling back on what they said at the beginning of the country without questioning its wisdom verges on religiousness.

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    Re: What Does the 2nd Amendment Actually Say?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    Who the **** are you to tell me what I've been saying when you obviously haven't read a goddamn thing I've written? You are wrong, and a liar, and if you are a man of any honor I await your retraction and apology for slurs against my character.
    You poor thing. Have a cookie.

    The second amendment is irrelevant to an individual right to possess and own weapons, as you yourself demonstrated with several quotes from caselaw. Which is why I maintain that the second amendment's original meaning relates only to a militia right.
    No, you "maintain" it because you read a silly, unsourced op-ed by a judge who's not an historian.
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