View Poll Results: What Does the 2nd Amendment Actually Say?

Voters
51. You may not vote on this poll
  • You can have any gun you want and no one can stop you.

    17 33.33%
  • You can have any ARM you want. Why stop at guns? Knives, grenades, nunchucks, tanks...it's all good!

    10 19.61%
  • Yeah, you can have a gun, but there are limits to that right, like every other right.

    21 41.18%
  • You can have a gun so you can join in a militia instead of having a standing army.

    10 19.61%
  • You can have an 18th century single-shot firearm and no one can stop you.

    8 15.69%
  • You and your gun cannot be singled out by the government, it has to follow it's own laws

    8 15.69%
  • As a principle you should have the right to a gun, but we're not going to explain how.

    4 7.84%
  • It's purposefully vague.

    5 9.80%
  • Other

    10 19.61%
Multiple Choice Poll.
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Thread: What Does the 2nd Amendment Actually Say?

  1. #121
    Filmmaker Lawyer Patriot
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    Re: What Does the 2nd Amendment Actually Say?

    Quote Originally Posted by aberrant85 View Post
    Thank you, you have demonstrated your libertarian credentials. I'm ok with not arguing with you further, because when you consider every function of the government to be unconstitutional you have then put up a wall reality and your ideal world.
    Well, that sounds like a cop-out. Why start a conversation for the 500th time if you don't actually want to have it?

    And I'm not talking about "libertarian" anything. You were wanting to discuss "originalism" and trying to show how even it MUST accept some "living constitution" theory. But no, it really doesn't have to, and trying to shoehorn modern interpretations into it just shows that you don't really know all that much about originalism.

    In short, you can't claim "originalism" must do something and then bolt when it's shown it doesn't have to, with some flutter about "every function of government unconstitutional," which is patent nonsense. Well, you can, but that's just lame.
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

  2. #122
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    Re: What Does the 2nd Amendment Actually Say?

    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Steel View Post
    ...
    In the case of the Second Amendment, the declared right to a citizen army creates the capacity to prevail against a government attempt to create a professional or standing army. Now, I realize the United States has a large standing army such as the Founders feared but that's a separate issue. It doesn't change the understanding of what they intended.
    A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

    So, who does the good regulation of the Militia? What is "a well regulated Militia"?

  3. #123
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    Re: What Does the 2nd Amendment Actually Say?

    Quote Originally Posted by OhIsee.Then View Post
    A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

    So, who does the good regulation of the Militia? What is "a well regulated Militia"?
    The term "well-regulated" means operated in such a way as to achieve substantially all of the attributes of the object being managed. In the case of the well-regulated militia of the Second Amendment, the militia must reflect the character and nature of the citizenry at large not that of a standing army.
    Proud to be a tax and spend leftist.

    Proud supporter of the real Second Amendment.

  4. #124
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    Re: What Does the 2nd Amendment Actually Say?

    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Steel View Post
    Rights are created by statute, court decisions, government procedures and, rarely, by convention. To the extent you can identify a right to possess a gun created by any of these acts, then yes.
    rights are not created by statute, where do you think the rights come from the constitution?

    the rights we have... existed before the constitution, or do you need proof, ..to show your wrong again.

  5. #125
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    Re: What Does the 2nd Amendment Actually Say?

    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Steel View Post
    Rights are best apprehended not so much as the capacity to do something but as the capacity to prevail against an obstacle to doing it. To that extent you're correct.

    In the case of the Second Amendment, the declared right to a citizen army creates the capacity to prevail against a government attempt to create a professional or standing army. Now, I realize the United States has a large standing army such as the Founders feared but that's a separate issue. It doesn't change the understanding of what they intended.
    wrong, want me to show you right to bare arms before 1787

  6. #126
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    Re: What Does the 2nd Amendment Actually Say?

    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Steel View Post
    The term "well-regulated" means operated in such a way as to achieve substantially all of the attributes of the object being managed. In the case of the well-regulated militia of the Second Amendment, the militia must reflect the character and nature of the citizenry at large not that of a standing army.
    I'm a retired design engineer and I still thing like one. So, please explain what is "the character and nature of the citizenry at large"? Could it be just a neighbor hood, or the majority of a town or a state etc.

  7. #127
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    Re: What Does the 2nd Amendment Actually Say?

    It’s Unfit To Exist – LewRockwell.com


    The Constitution Does Not Grant Rights!

    I have in the past written about the folly of constitution worship here and here, but the widespread belief by most Americans that this document grants us our rights, and that it also is meant to protect our freedoms, is in my opinion absurd.

    Natural rights, or any rights for that matter, are inherent due to our very humanity. Our right to life and liberty, whether one believes that those rights come from God or not, can never be bestowed by men. For if men can bestow rights, then they are not rights at all, because they can just as easily be taken away. To believe then, that a group of men that some call "founders," could with the stroke of a pen grant rights to another group of men, is ludicrous.

    Our rights to life and liberty are evident from the time of our very existence. These rights encompass all others, for without the right to life, and the freedom to sustain and protect that life; no other rights could possibly exist. Pieces of paper secretly drafted by politicians in the dark of night cannot give or protect rights, as those same politicians, or those who follow in their footsteps, could arbitrarily change the rules at any time of their choosing. For any set of rules to be valid, they first have to be accepted voluntarily by the individuals involved, and actively defended at every turn. But today, those individuals affected rely on a small group of corrupt politicians called "representatives," to act in their behalf, instead of taking responsibility for their own lot in life. That, in my opinion, is a recipe for tyranny.

  8. #128
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    Re: What Does the 2nd Amendment Actually Say?

    Vague, poorly written,( maybe by illiterates), open to interpretation describe the 2nd amendment.
    Congress, get off your lazy arses and fix this , if you can..
    All too likely that they would make it worse, thanks to our extremists..
    But in todays world, its ludicrous that the insane and semi-insane (me), be allowed to own deadly weapons.

  9. #129
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    Re: What Does the 2nd Amendment Actually Say?

    Quote Originally Posted by earthworm View Post
    Vague, poorly written,( maybe by illiterates), open to interpretation describe the 2nd amendment.
    Congress, get off your lazy arses and fix this , if you can..
    All too likely that they would make it worse, thanks to our extremists..
    But in todays world, its ludicrous that the insane and semi-insane (me), be allowed to own deadly weapons.
    you are ludicrous

    the 2nd is prohibition on government .....it is not a right, how can government change the 2nd, since it is a prohibition on them.......as stated by the bill of rights itself.

    that would be like a thief, being able to change the law, and make his crime no longer illegal.
    Last edited by Master PO; 09-16-13 at 02:35 PM.

  10. #130
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    Re: What Does the 2nd Amendment Actually Say?

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    ...
    the 2nd is prohibition on government .....it is not a right, how can government change the 2nd, since it is a prohibition on them.......as stated by the bill of rights itself.
    ...
    So an armed militia that knows the Obama administration is dangerous to America and should be taken out needs its guns per the 2nd amendment. I think I understand.

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