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Should a Man have an Absolute Right to Choose to Abort His Baby?

Should a Man have an Absolute Right to abort his baby?

  • Yes, but only during the first 20 weeks, same as a woman.

    Votes: 3 3.4%
  • Yes, but only during the initial period when a non-invasive technique works.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • No, but he should have the right to be legally relieved of all responsibility.

    Votes: 44 49.4%
  • NO! Only the woman has this right and he remains responsible.

    Votes: 18 20.2%
  • I oppose all abortion, so neither have the right.

    Votes: 19 21.3%
  • I Don't Know.

    Votes: 5 5.6%

  • Total voters
    89
Wrong

It still doesn't apply to the unborn

you still have no answered by question..

you state the unborn is "NOT A PERSON IN THE 14TH.

YET..YOU STATE.....THAT IS THE 14TH WHERE IT SAYS "NO STATE", .....THAT IT MEANS ......A PERSON OR A BUSINESS.........how is a "state" a person?

how do you arrive at this conclusion?
 
Moderator's Warning:
Please stay on topic. Discusion of any rights that is not about abortion needs to end. Remember I am watching you!

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the question is valid, i am asking how he see things, how does he not see one thing yet see another, and yet neither are written.

its goes to the "mindset" of the man.
 
Ownership documents of the baby? No one. There are no ownership documents of any person since the ratification of the 13th Amendment. Even after the child is born and almost all of us agree that it has the right to life, there are stil no ownership documents. Does that mean it's not the mother's child, since the mother never ever gets ownership documents?


It's not a potential baby, it is a baby, by definition.


The names of the women who made this the public's business are Linda Coffee and Sarah Weddington.

A baby is a baby when it's born, and it 'belongs' to its mother because she bore it. I'm not into American news, I'm afraid, but as far as I'm concerned, the public's only business with babies is to support them if others can't. What other use has the State?
 
A baby is a baby when it's born...

It's also a baby before it's born:
"Child" 1 and "baby" 1 have pre-birth uses.
A fetus is a "child" 2 and a "baby" 2 is a "child", thus we can call a fetus a "baby" 3.
Legally a "child" 4 is one's natural offspring, which is what a pregnant woman carries.
So, a pregnant woman carries her "child", her "unborn child", her "unborn baby".
This makes her a "parent", specifically, a “mother”.

"Organism" = "a living being".
Human DNA = "human".
"Organism" + Human DNA = "A Human Being".


...and it 'belongs' to its mother because....
That's called slavery, one person belonging to another.

I'm not into American news, I'm afraid, but as far as I'm concerned, the public's only business with babies is to support them if others can't. What other use has the State?
This isn't about the state, this thread is about the father and rather or not he has an inherent universal right to force a woman to stop gestating his child.
 
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the question is valid, i am asking how he see things, how does he not see one thing yet see another, and yet neither are written.

its goes to the "mindset" of the man.
 
I'm simply stating reality isn't fair. At present, there is nothing we can do to make it fair without enslaving one sex or the other.

Like I said. A woman does now choose to be the one with the uterus. She just ended up that way. It makes no sense that a man should have any less responsibility for controlling the outcome than a woman should because they made the same choice (same choice = same risk= same responsibility to control outcome). They also then, have the same responsibility for the outcome of their shared risk. You claim to be a feminist? Feminism does not promote the notion of men getting away with the same **** they have for generations. It holds them accountable for their actions instead of having the OK to use women, abuse women and then walk away like they just jacked off. It is not maximum rights we strive for and have sacrificed for it is equal rights.

I don't believe a man should have any say over what a woman does with a pregnancy.
Now here we disagree. I think that is the greater inequity. What if he wants the child an she doesn't? He looses his child. He is limited by anatomy so nature limits his choices not women.
 
Like I said. A woman does now choose to be the one with the uterus. She just ended up that way. It makes no sense that a man should have any less responsibility for controlling the outcome than a woman should because they made the same choice (same choice = same risk= same responsibility to control outcome). They also then, have the same responsibility for the outcome of their shared risk. You claim to be a feminist? Feminism does not promote the notion of men getting away with the same **** they have for generations. It holds them accountable for their actions instead of having the OK to use women, abuse women and then walk away like they just jacked off. It is not maximum rights we strive for and have sacrificed for it is equal rights.

He doesn't, because we're not talking about the uterus. We're talking about what comes out of it, which SHE ALONE is responsible for deciding.

And if she makes that decision refusing any input from the man -- as is absolutely her right -- then she alone is responsible for the feasibility of that decision.

You act as though women do not decide to have sex -- they just fumble around until they get surprise-screwed.

I'm sorry, I believe women are sentient.

A man will not "use" a woman that way unless he allows her to.

Now here we disagree. I think that is the greater inequity. What if he wants the child an she doesn't? He looses his child. He is limited by anatomy so nature limits his choices not women.

Yes, he is limited by anatomy. Too bad, so sad. It's in her body, depleting and harming her.

However, this is different from who will raise a child after the fact. At that point, it is not harming anyone's body, and it belongs to whoever decides to raise it.
 
He doesn't, because we're not talking about the uterus. We're talking about what comes out of it, which SHE ALONE is responsible for deciding.

And if she makes that decision refusing any input from the man -- as is absolutely her right -- then she alone is responsible for the feasibility of that decision.

You act as though women do not decide to have sex -- they just fumble around until they get surprise-screwed.

I'm sorry, I believe women are sentient.

A man will not "use" a woman that way unless he allows her to.



Yes, he is limited by anatomy. Too bad, so sad. It's in her body, depleting and harming her.

However, this is different from who will raise a child after the fact. At that point, it is not harming anyone's body, and it belongs to whoever decides to raise it.
This thread is about forcing her to have an abortion, not carry to term.
 
This thread is about forcing her to have an abortion, not carry to term.

Okay. I don't support the idea of a man having a "right" to force a woman to have an abortion, but neither do I support the idea of a woman having a "right" to force a man into fatherhood against his will. Men should have the same right to choose whether or not to become a parent that women have.
 
Okay. I don't support the idea of a man having a "right" to force a woman to have an abortion, but neither do I support the idea of a woman having a "right" to force a man into fatherhood against his will. Men should have the same right to choose whether or not to become a parent that women have.
"The same right", not an equivalent right, but the same right, and that right is to have the child aborted.
 
The Couple should have the right to abort if both agree and for special cases.

If the child is born with technical problems, of course they should have that right.
 
"The same right", not an equivalent right, but the same right, and that right is to have the child aborted.

They have the same right not to become parents and to have unwanted fetuses removed from their persons. Neither of them has the right to abort a child that is not growing within them.
 
I don't think a man should get to make the choice, but I do think that if he wants the baby aborted, and does not plan to be involved in its life, that he should have no legal obligation to the mother if she decides to have it. Afaic, she has the choice, she should be legally responsible.

This....spot on
 
They have the same right not to become parents and to have unwanted fetuses removed from their persons. Neither of them has the right to abort a child that is not growing within them.
Once there's a pregnancy, the only way to not become a parent is to abort. Once the child is born, you are a perant.
 
Once there's a pregnancy, the only way to not become a parent is to abort. Once the child is born, you are a perant.

Unless you give the kid up for adoption. Or, if you're a man, the mother never tells you. "Parent" is a verb; people who don't parent aren't parents.
 
Or, if you're a man, the mother never tells you.

I know a guy who had this happen to him. had sex with a girl he met at a Beta Club convention when he was 15. she got pregnant and never told him, until the kid graduated from HS and she tracked him down (isn't the internet a wonderful thing) and asked for help sending the kid to college. She said she knew he was the father because that was the only one of her kids that wasn't a dumbass. (and it was mixed and he was the only white guy she'd ever slept with). Dude paid for half of the college expenses.
 
Unless you give the kid up for adoption.
I've don that. Twice. Adopting those children out was a decision I made as a parent. In fact it's a decision we both had to hold for 6 months after the birth before our parental rights were transferred to the adopting couple.

Or, if you're a man, the mother never tells you.
You're still a parent, you're just an absentee parent. That you're absence isn't your fault changes nothing, you're still a parent and the courts will backdate your child support to prove it.

"Parent" is a verb; people who don't parent aren't parents.
Go back and look at what you originally said:
They have the same right not to become parents and to have unwanted fetuses removed from their persons.
That's a reference to a noun. If you had meant a verb you would have said something like "They have the same right not to parent and to have unwanted fetuses removed from their persons."

Once the child is born, the father is a parent (noun) even if he isn't parenting (verb). He is an absentee or deadbeat 'parent in that case, but is a parent (noun) non the less.

You said, a few times now, that both the man and woman have the same right to decline to become parents (noun). The only way that happens is through abortion.
 
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I know a guy who had this happen to him. had sex with a girl he met at a Beta Club convention when he was 15. she got pregnant and never told him, until the kid graduated from HS and she tracked him down (isn't the internet a wonderful thing) and asked for help sending the kid to college. She said she knew he was the father because that was the only one of her kids that wasn't a dumbass. (and it was mixed and he was the only white guy she'd ever slept with). Dude paid for half of the college expenses.

Nothing like waiting until you need him. :lol:
 
Okay. I don't support the idea of a man having a "right" to force a woman to have an abortion, but neither do I support the idea of a woman having a "right" to force a man into fatherhood against his will. Men should have the same right to choose whether or not to become a parent that women have.

Vik...you've just listed two things that you don't support. Those two things are the very things that create the legal paradox, which makes the issue so provocative and controversial.

I see your two points...but where you lose me is your final sentence: "MEN SHOULD HAVE THE SAME RIGHT TO CHOOSE...whether or not to become a parent...that a woman has."

That begs the question: How is that possible?

Let me offer the following situations that make this legal paradox so complex.

Here's how this situation get's sticky...

Here's how "some men" see a way to NOT BE FORCED to be a parent...as a result of an unintended and/or unwanted conception.

A law would have to be a created in which it states that in the case of an unintended conception. During the period of non-viability of the embryo or fetus, that the sperm donor can legally declare that he doesn't want to be a father and will have the CHOICE to waiver out of any responsibility for the pregnancy or a child given birth to.

The declaration must be made during the non-viability period...then the woman can decide if she wants to have an abortion so that she herself doesn't have the burdens involved....or she "chooses" to carry the embryo or fetus to full-term.

If the woman choose abortion...then he pays half.

Now...great for the guy if he doesn't want to be a parent.

HOWEVER:
What if the woman doesn't believe in abortion. OR She isn't financially or physically capable of enduring the pregnancy and raising a child....AND does NOT want to give her child up for adoption because she cannot live with giving her child away to strangers or people she has no guarantee that they'll be good parents?

But, if he wants to be a parent and she doesn't. There would have to be a law which would force a woman to have birth...because the man filed a suit to intervene for the reason of wanting to be a parent.

How would that be achieved without forcing a woman to be exposed to all of the risks associated with pregnancy and delivery...along with the acquisition of possible long-term physical traumas to a woman's body resulting from giving birth?

A man can't physically experience those risks and long-term effects.

If a man could force the woman to bring to full-term a conception. What would the custody and support agree look like? The woman may not want any responsibility for a child if forced to give birth.

There's been no discussion about a pregnancy that results in the birth of a child with severe birth defects. Is the man going to take custody and care for such a child...AFTER he somehow legally forced her to give birth...because he wanted to be a parent?

So now, we're quickly coming back to a huge part of this argument which involves...

What if the woman wants to bring the conception to full-term and she wants the man to be financially responsible (and shared parenting duties)? And the man DOES NOT WANT TO BE A PARENT!

Now we're to the point where we are going to engage in a circular argument.


There are "biological reasons" that there will NEVER BE EQUITABLE LEGAL SOLUTIONS...."YET" Smoke and Mirrors has pointed this out several times.

But I do want to say that I believe that in the near future that there will be a technological remedies to these legal problems.

There will always be things in life that will never be fair.


_________________________________________________________________________________


The current dilemma is related to "legal recourse" for men when an unintended conception occurs. In other word there is the contention that there should be a way to give men "equal" rights with a woman...which would allow the man to also determine the fate of an unintended conception.

1) a man can't prevent the woman from having an abortion...even it he wants the conception brought to full term and be willing to take full financial responsibility ...and custody without child support.

2) a man can't prevent the woman from having a child...even if before having sex they agreed that the sexual event was strictly for pleasure and not conception... again he can be forced by court order to be at least jointly financially responsible from prenatal care all the way to 18 years of age child.

__________________________________________________________________________________


My opinion regarding “surprise conceptions” is:

A) If a woman who has a "surprise conception"...and knows that she will abort. Her best option is not to disclose the conception. That automatically removes any adversities between her and the person she co-conceived with. There will be no legal arguments. And there will be no moral arguments.

B) If a woman has a "surprise conception" and decides she will carry it to full-term and she decides she will holds the co-conceiver equally responsible for all that follows...then the co-conceiver has no legal ground to opt out, therefore the co-conceiver must prepare to pay the piper.

C) If the woman discloses the "surprise conception" and is determined to have an abortion...then MUST BE AWARE AND BE WILLING to opening herself up to potential legal issues, moral issues, and other adversities that can be raised by the man she co-conceived with.

By circumstance of birth...women are already burden with a very unfair role in reproduction. Consequently, I'll ALWAYS support the following for women: If a woman conceives (regardless of circumstance around the cause of the conception)...and she chooses to abort for any reason whatsoever...prior to viability stage...regardless of the co-conceivers opinions or objections.

Life isn't fair with a number of issues between men and women. But women have been on the short side of issues of fairness and equal rights in so many ways for eons...maybe since the beginning of humanity.
 
Nothing like waiting until you need him. :lol:

true. but it's still kind of a crappy thing to do. I'm 100% sure this guy would have liked to have been a part of his daughter's life for those first 18 years.
 
true. but it's still kind of a crappy thing to do. I'm 100% sure this guy would have liked to have been a part of his daughter's life for those first 18 years.

You can always tell a scumbag by their actions and that woman is a first class scumbag. Yeah, don't bother telling the guy he has a daughter until you want something from him. What could possibly be wrong with that? I ****ing hate people.
 
You can always tell a scumbag by their actions and that woman is a first class scumbag. Yeah, don't bother telling the guy he has a daughter until you want something from him. What could possibly be wrong with that?

at least he was a stand-up guy and did the right thing by the child.
 
This thread is about forcing her to have an abortion, not carry to term.

This thread is about a Man's right to choose. More specifically; acknowledging that a woman has absolute control over her own body and thus the absolute right to decide whether or not to have a baby, it is really more focused on a man's right to choose NOT to take responsibility for HER unilateral decision.

The thread title was meant to inflame interest, the actual thesis is made clear in the OP.
 
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This thread is about a Man's right to choose. More specifically; acknowledging that a woman has absolute control over her own body and thus the absolute right to decide whether or not to have a baby, it is really more focused on a man's right to choose NOT to take responsibility for HER unilateral decision. That is made clear in the OP.
Your thread title says: "Should a Man have an Absolute Right to Choose to Abort His Baby?"

The first sentence of your OP says: "Should a man have an absolute right to have his baby aborted?"

Opting out of responsibility is offered as an alternative to abortion.

So, no, that was NOT made clear in your OP. In fact the exact opposite was made crystal clear in your OP. This thread is about a man having the right to have his child aborted.
 
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