View Poll Results: Should a Man have an Absolute Right to abort his baby?

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  • Yes, but only during the first 20 weeks, same as a woman.

    3 2.97%
  • Yes, but only during the initial period when a non-invasive technique works.

    0 0%
  • No, but he should have the right to be legally relieved of all responsibility.

    50 49.50%
  • NO! Only the woman has this right and he remains responsible.

    21 20.79%
  • I oppose all abortion, so neither have the right.

    22 21.78%
  • I Don't Know.

    5 4.95%
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Thread: Should a Man have an Absolute Right to Choose to Abort His Baby?

  1. #971
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    Re: Should a Man have an Absolute Right to Choose to Abort His Baby?

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Adverse View Post
    That means SHE has the primary duty of care for it.
    Both parent have the primary duty of care for their children
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

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    Re: Should a Man have an Absolute Right to Choose to Abort His Baby?

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Adverse View Post
    In life nothing is equal, absolutely NOTHING. However, legal equity is possible in a free society. That hypothetical possibility is what we are discussing.
    one of the problems we face today is people believe other people are supposed to treat them equal, ...this is false, equality under the law is for government.....not individuals.

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    Re: Should a Man have an Absolute Right to Choose to Abort His Baby?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sheik Yerbuti View Post
    That's because men can't get pregnant and therefore, don't have the same rights as women when it comes to abortion.
    Nonsense

    Pregnant men have just as much right to have an abortion as any pregnant woman
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

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    Re: Should a Man have an Absolute Right to Choose to Abort His Baby?

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    Nonsense

    Pregnant men have just as much right to have an abortion as any pregnant woman
    Don't you believe government creates rights? If so, wouldn't they have to establish that right? I don't think they have established men have the right to abortion.

  5. #975
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    Re: Should a Man have an Absolute Right to Choose to Abort His Baby?

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Adverse View Post
    In life nothing is equal, absolutely NOTHING. However, legal equity is possible in a free society. That hypothetical possibility is what we are discussing.
    Unfortunately, what you are asking for is two different things, so it's not even about equality.

  6. #976
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    Re: Should a Man have an Absolute Right to Choose to Abort His Baby?

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Adverse View Post
    No it is NOT, although YOU might like to make it about that. It is about equality of choice.

    The focus is on the fact that currently the law allows abortion with a woman having an absolute right to choose prior to the 22-24th week, i.e. during the first tri-mester. Unless both parties were actively seeking to conceive they were likely engaged in "recreational sex" which does not automatically result in a pregnancy. In fact even if you are actively trying and following all best methods there is only a one in five chance it will work. That makes it an even less likely, albeit still possible, result of even unprotected sex. Thus, both parties who engage in unprotected sex may recognize a possibility of conception but don't necessarily agree to it.

    Current law allows a woman the asolute right to abort, regardless of what the male wants. It also allows an absolute right to have the baby, regardless of what the man wants. Well, if he has no choice in keeping it, why must he have the responsibility if she chooses to keep it? If the sole choice is hers, then the sole responsibility is hers. The male should have the right to volunteer to marriage and family, or to opt-out.
    Sorry, that's not possible. If a woman chooses NOT TO ABORT. You, like Vik...you're leaving out the object of which the argument is built around. THE KID. Once a conception occurs, a woman cannot be forced to abort. That means in all likelihood there will be a child born.

    No civilized society is going to let a man or woman put their own selfish interest over that of a child that cannot provide for itself, or have a legal voice to defend itself. That's where our judicial system comes in if the man and woman conceive...and a woman is determined to bring to full term the conception.

    The judicial system won't care about the man...or the woman when push comes to shove.

    The KID is the entity being support. That is why...men can cry and bitch and moan all they want if a woman CHOOSES NOT TO ABORT.

    No legislator could justify enacting an Opt Out law. And no legislator could effectively create an enforceable language to create an Opt-Out Law, which a man could automatically declare...foregoing all circumstances, which might possibly alter the ability to declare such an option.

    In other words...if a woman chooses not to abort...and cant be forced to...a child is born....I assure you, the kid will become the first consideration.

    Sorry...to all of the disappointed guys who will have to live with this hardcore reality. And as Smoke and Mirrors has said a number of times. This disparity is all linked to "biology". The story around the biology...will reveal...exactly why men will never be able to legally override a woman's unilateral choice regarding the fate of a conception.

  7. #977
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    Re: Should a Man have an Absolute Right to Choose to Abort His Baby?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sheik Yerbuti View Post
    By what authority should men be able to "opt out" of supporting their own children?
    You're asking the wrong question. By what authority are they forced to accept the responsibilities of parenthood? By what justification? I am not talking about allowing fathers to abandon their children-- I am talking about the fact that forcing men to accept every child offered to them, making them fathers without their consent, is a violation of their basic human rights and the natural order in the first place.

    Fathers should not have the right to abandon their children-- but until they have taken that child into their arms and declared it theirs, given that child their name and their home, they are not fathers and forcing them to become fathers is not only impossible, but attempting to do so is grossly irresponsible and morally unconscionable.

    Quote Originally Posted by Removable Mind View Post
    Under what circumstance would a man have the right to refuse paternity....If a woman decides NOT to abort...and she can't be forced to...
    Under any circumstances, except that he has previously accepted paternity and claimed the child as his own. Until he has chosen to become a father, his is not a father, and if he is not a father, it is not acceptable to force him to become one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Removable Mind View Post
    How would the legislators (Federal/State) justify creating a Opt-Out law? How would the language be created to make it enforceable?

    An Opt Out Law, at the very most, be enforceable "during the non-viability stage" of pregnancy. So when a man decides that he wants to opts out...what is going to be the next legal step? How can it be an "automatic" option for a man to opt out... barring all other circumstances that might alter the option?
    It shouldn't be an "opt out" law at all, in the first place. It should be an "opt in" law. The fundamental problem is that we have attempted to turn a social issue into a biological one; DNA does not make parents.

    Quote Originally Posted by Removable Mind View Post
    And while you call this "the only equitable solution"...you're leaving out the most affected element in this argument. THE KID! That's who is being supported! The kid didn't do anything to deserve NOT BEING CARED FOR properly! A kid is dependent. A kid can't defend itself. A kid can't fend for itself.
    Lot of kids don't have fathers who can support them. Doesn't give them the right to just force someone to be their daddy. I'm sorry that it's rough for the kid, but kids are born into rough circumstances all the time, and that's simply part of the responsibilities that people have to assume when they're deciding whether or not to have children. A woman has to think about whether or not she can support a kid on her own, and whether or not she has a man who will stand by her side and raise children with her-- same as a man has to decide whether or not he can support a child, and whether or not he wants to raise children with the woman offering them to him.

    You can justify all manner of injustice by saying "it's for the children!" This is no different. It's an injustice, and like all injustice, it doesn't actually help the children in the long run.

    Quote Originally Posted by X Factor View Post
    And nobody who is truly pro-choice should support the coercion you're advocating.
    Part of having choices in this world is being responsible for the consequences. It isn't "coercion" to refuse to bear responsibility for choices you didn't have a say in.

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    Re: Should a Man have an Absolute Right to Choose to Abort His Baby?

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    That's kind of like what I just said.
    That's not what you said at first.

    You said,
    "Tell that to the people that think he isn't a father if he walks."

    Then you gave the definition for "parent," not "father."

    A [male] parent IS a father; a father MAY be a parent.

    That's the distinction you don't understand.

  9. #979
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    Re: Should a Man have an Absolute Right to Choose to Abort His Baby?

    Quote Originally Posted by Korimyr the Rat View Post
    Part of having choices in this world is being responsible for the consequences. It isn't "coercion" to refuse to bear responsibility for choices you didn't have a say in.
    Didn't have any "say" in? Are we presuming all these men were raped? Sounds like you're saying that everyone is responsible for the consequences of their actions except men who father children. Interesting.

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    Re: Should a Man have an Absolute Right to Choose to Abort His Baby?

    Quote Originally Posted by Korimyr the Rat View Post
    You're asking the wrong question. By what authority are they forced to accept the responsibilities of parenthood? By what justification? I am not talking about allowing fathers to abandon their children-- I am talking about the fact that forcing men to accept every child offered to them, making them fathers without their consent, is a violation of their basic human rights and the natural order in the first place.

    Fathers should not have the right to abandon their children-- but until they have taken that child into their arms and declared it theirs, given that child their name and their home, they are not fathers and forcing them to become fathers is not only impossible, but attempting to do so is grossly irresponsible and morally unconscionable.



    Under any circumstances, except that he has previously accepted paternity and claimed the child as his own. Until he has chosen to become a father, his is not a father, and if he is not a father, it is not acceptable to force him to become one.



    It shouldn't be an "opt out" law at all, in the first place. It should be an "opt in" law. The fundamental problem is that we have attempted to turn a social issue into a biological one; DNA does not make parents.



    Lot of kids don't have fathers who can support them. Doesn't give them the right to just force someone to be their daddy. I'm sorry that it's rough for the kid, but kids are born into rough circumstances all the time, and that's simply part of the responsibilities that people have to assume when they're deciding whether or not to have children. A woman has to think about whether or not she can support a kid on her own, and whether or not she has a man who will stand by her side and raise children with her-- same as a man has to decide whether or not he can support a child, and whether or not he wants to raise children with the woman offering them to him.

    You can justify all manner of injustice by saying "it's for the children!" This is no different. It's an injustice, and like all injustice, it doesn't actually help the children in the long run.



    Part of having choices in this world is being responsible for the consequences. It isn't "coercion" to refuse to bear responsibility for choices you didn't have a say in.


    That's a pretty argument...but won't fly. Once a woman says she has conceived...and is determined to bring it to full-term. A kid is the object of which this argument revolves around. No civilized society will put its needs behind that of a man or woman and it really doesn't matter if they want to call themselves "parent or not". Kids can't provide for themselves nor do they have a legal voice to defend themselves.

    There is a greater obligation to a kid...period. Mommies and daddies ain't **** in this argument...once a woman decides a conception will be brought to full-term. Period.

    It is impossible to create an "equal state" in the matter....

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