View Poll Results: Should a Man have an Absolute Right to abort his baby?

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  • Yes, but only during the first 20 weeks, same as a woman.

    3 2.97%
  • Yes, but only during the initial period when a non-invasive technique works.

    0 0%
  • No, but he should have the right to be legally relieved of all responsibility.

    50 49.50%
  • NO! Only the woman has this right and he remains responsible.

    21 20.79%
  • I oppose all abortion, so neither have the right.

    22 21.78%
  • I Don't Know.

    5 4.95%
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Thread: Should a Man have an Absolute Right to Choose to Abort His Baby?

  1. #891
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    Re: Should a Man have an Absolute Right to Choose to Abort His Baby?

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    SO change "do" to "should"
    Just as I don't have the ability to abort your child, neither do I have the ability to edit your posts. Maybe I should have that ability?

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    Re: Should a Man have an Absolute Right to Choose to Abort His Baby?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    Just as I don't have the ability to abort your child, neither do I have the ability to edit your posts. Maybe I should have that ability?
    nope.
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

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    Re: Should a Man have an Absolute Right to Choose to Abort His Baby?

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    nope.
    If I shouldn't have that ability, then maybe you shouldn't be asking me to edit your posts, because asking me to do it means you want me to be able to do it.

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    Re: Should a Man have an Absolute Right to Choose to Abort His Baby?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    If I shouldn't have that ability, then maybe you shouldn't be asking me to edit your posts, because asking me to do it means you want me to be able to do it.
    No it doesn't
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

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    Re: Should a Man have an Absolute Right to Choose to Abort His Baby?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    The difference is that one is fair and one is not because one was chosen and one was not. If you were born with a handicap that's a "life ain't fair" situation because you had no choice in the matter. With pregnancy you consented to the risk when you consented to sex, you had a choice, some degree of control, and having made your choice it manifests a consequence you knew about before hand; "you made your bed."
    Incorrect. It is NOT "fair" because while sexual activity may lead to pregnancy it does not automatcially do so. As I've pointed out several times in this thread; even when a couple follows all procedures in sincerely trying to conceive there is only a 20% chance of success in any month. That's not cumulative, that is the standard chance in any one month. Furthermore, most sexual activity is motiviated purely by a desire to experience pleasure; not procreation. In such situations both parties have merely agreed to engage in sex.

    So unless both partners have agreed to actively pursue having a baby, merely engaging in sex for pleasure does NOT incur "automatic consent to conceive" on the part of either party. Thus such conception is clearly an accident unless either party intended to entrap the other in order to have a baby for their own reasons. That is not rare for females, as Lizzie attempted to point out in some of her replies. In such a situation even oral sex can be problematic since a mere transfer of the goods can result in a male facing a completely unexpected conception. Then there are also men who desire children where the women do not...examples exist of men intentionally damaging condoms to increase the chances of pregnancy in unsuspecting women.

    In any case arguing that the mere fact of sex incurs permission to conceive is disingenuous. The woman is always in control, can always require preventive methods as well as use them herself, and can always act immediately thereafter to insure no pregancy occurs. (I.e. morning after pill, medicinal abortion, surgical abortion.)

    If she has the absolute right to opt-out of keeping a baby, then the male should also have the right. Since most agree that he cannot force her to abort since it is her body and he was just a short-term "visitor," then the law should allow him to act as if HE legally aborted by opting out of all personal and financial responsibility. That is a rationally equitable solution, rightly dismissing "guilting" or "public policy" claims.
    Last edited by Captain Adverse; 09-16-13 at 09:58 PM.
    If I stop responding it doesn't mean I've conceded the point or agree with you. It only means I've made my point and I don't mind you having the last word. Please wait a few minutes before "quoting" me. I often correct errors for a minute or two after I post before the final product is ready.

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    Re: Should a Man have an Absolute Right to Choose to Abort His Baby?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    The difference is that one is fair and one is not because one was chosen and one was not. If you were born with a handicap that's a "life ain't fair" situation because you had no choice in the matter. With pregnancy you consented to the risk when you consented to sex, you had a choice, some degree of control, and having made your choice it manifests a consequence you knew about before hand; "you made your bed".


    In the abortion forum, we move only in circles.
    Jerry...when only Adam and Eve existed....maybe, just maybe consent to risk when there was a consent to sex...was the rule...not the exception.

    That was then....this is now. "THE RULE" has become "THE EXCEPTION".

    You've got it backward. For eons now sex was, is, and probably always will be performed many, many, many, many more times for pleasure than for reproduction.

    Today...when people have sex...it is automatically regarded that each sexual event IS FOR PLEASURE ONLY...NOT for reproduction UNLESS DECLARED to be for reproduction.

    The "intended consequence" for having sex is "orgasms"...well, some women might add "expressing love"....UNLESS DECLARED to reproduce.

    So now the NORM would also be: The "unintended" consequence of sex is conception unless declared otherwise!

    And...nooooo, it's not a "You made your bed so now lay in it" world anymore. We're way, way past that concept.

    That's as nonsensical as "keep peckers in pants" or "Keep legs closed". That's not going to happen.

    There is 7 billion folks here now. How many folks existed before that? Humanity isn't at risk of extinction or even negative growth population problems.

    All is good with populations.

  7. #897
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    Re: Should a Man have an Absolute Right to Choose to Abort His Baby?

    Quote Originally Posted by Removable Mind View Post
    The current dilemma is related to "legal recourse" for men when an unintended conception occurs. In other word there is the contention that there should be a way to give men "equal" rights with a woman...which would allow the man to also determine the fate of an unintended conception.
    Equal rights would be a man having the legal right to choose whether or not to accept paternity of a child. Then, in order for a child to have two parents, two parents must choose to become parents. This gives neither partner legal authority over the other's decisions or their body. The courts have ruled that once the ejaculate leaves the body, the man has no more legal authority over it, and this I agree with. He does not have any right to tell the woman whether or not have a child once he's given her his genetic material-- but neither does she have the right to tell him whether or not to accept a child.

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisL View Post
    This is just a terrible idea. It will create more broken homes, fatherless unwanted children and more people collecting public assistance or MORE abortions. What an AWFUL idea.
    The current child support regime has created a moral hazard that produces broken homes and fatherless children. A paycheck and two weekends a month is not a parent.
    Last edited by Korimyr the Rat; 09-17-13 at 12:13 AM.

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    Re: Should a Man have an Absolute Right to Choose to Abort His Baby?

    Quote Originally Posted by Korimyr the Rat View Post
    It's simple. A woman is not a mother just because she has given birth; she is a mother because she has given birth and kept the child. It should work the same for a man.


    Let me offer the following situations that make this legal paradox so complex.





    So now, we're quickly coming back to a huge part of this argument which involves...



    Now we're to the point where we are going to engage in a circular argument.


    There are "biological reasons" that there will NEVER BE EQUITABLE LEGAL SOLUTIONS...."YET" Smoke and Mirrors has pointed this out several times.

    But I do want to say that I believe that in the near future that there will be a technological remedies to these legal problems.

    There will always be things in life that will never be fair.


    __________________________________________________ _______________________________


    The current dilemma is related to "legal recourse" for men when an unintended conception occurs. In other word there is the contention that there should be a way to give men "equal" rights with a woman...which would allow the man to also determine the fate of an unintended conception.

    1) a man can't prevent the woman from having an abortion...even it he wants the conception brought to full term and be willing to take full financial responsibility ...and custody without child support.

    2) a man can't prevent the woman from having a child...even if before having sex they agreed that the sexual event was strictly for pleasure and not conception... again he can be forced by court order to be at least jointly financially responsible from prenatal care all the way to 18 years of age child.

    __________________________________________________ ________________________________


    My opinion regarding “surprise conceptions” is:

    A) If a woman who has a "surprise conception"...and knows that she will abort. Her best option is not to disclose the conception. That automatically removes any adversities between her and the person she co-conceived with. There will be no legal arguments. And there will be no moral arguments.

    B) If a woman has a "surprise conception" and decides she will carry it to full-term and she decides she will holds the co-conceiver equally responsible for all that follows...then the co-conceiver has no legal ground to opt out, therefore the co-conceiver must prepare to pay the piper.

    C) If the woman discloses the "surprise conception" and is determined to have an abortion...then MUST BE AWARE AND BE WILLING to opening herself up to potential legal issues, moral issues, and other adversities that can be raised by the man she co-conceived with.

    By circumstance of birth...women are already burden with a very unfair role in reproduction. Consequently, I'll ALWAYS support the following for women: If a woman conceives (regardless of circumstance around the cause of the conception)...and she chooses to abort for any reason whatsoever...prior to viability stage...regardless of the co-conceivers opinions or objections.



    The current child support regime has created a moral hazard that produces broken homes and fatherless children. A paycheck and two weekends a month is not a parent.
    I disagree. Child support is for the children. If there isn't child support, then the obligation will fall on the rest of us. Face it, women don't stay with men because of the children anymore. That is an idea from the past which has died. It still doesn't absolve the father of the child of his responsibility for helping to create the child.

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    Re: Should a Man have an Absolute Right to Choose to Abort His Baby?

    Quote Originally Posted by Korimyr the Rat View Post
    It's simple. A woman is not a mother just because she has given birth; she is a mother because she has given birth and kept the child. It should work the same for a man.
    You're just saying the same as before, but saying it different...not a solution.

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    Re: Should a Man have an Absolute Right to Choose to Abort His Baby?

    Quote Originally Posted by Removable Mind View Post
    Jerry...when only Adam and Eve existed....maybe, just maybe consent to risk when there was a consent to sex...was the rule...not the exception.

    That was then....this is now. "THE RULE" has become "THE EXCEPTION".

    You've got it backward. For eons now sex was, is, and probably always will be performed many, many, many, many more times for pleasure than for reproduction.

    Today...when people have sex...it is automatically regarded that each sexual event IS FOR PLEASURE ONLY...NOT for reproduction UNLESS DECLARED to be for reproduction.

    The "intended consequence" for having sex is "orgasms"...well, some women might add "expressing love"....UNLESS DECLARED to reproduce.

    So now the NORM would also be: The "unintended" consequence of sex is conception unless declared otherwise!

    And...nooooo, it's not a "You made your bed so now lay in it" world anymore. We're way, way past that concept.

    That's as nonsensical as "keep peckers in pants" or "Keep legs closed". That's not going to happen.

    There is 7 billion folks here now. How many folks existed before that? Humanity isn't at risk of extinction or even negative growth population problems.

    All is good with populations.
    How many people are in the world does not change the nature of the decision when an individual makes it. There could be 2 or 2 billion and pregnancy is still a known result of sex. It's a risk you accept when you have sex.

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