View Poll Results: Should a Man have an Absolute Right to abort his baby?

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  • Yes, but only during the first 20 weeks, same as a woman.

    3 2.97%
  • Yes, but only during the initial period when a non-invasive technique works.

    0 0%
  • No, but he should have the right to be legally relieved of all responsibility.

    50 49.50%
  • NO! Only the woman has this right and he remains responsible.

    21 20.79%
  • I oppose all abortion, so neither have the right.

    22 21.78%
  • I Don't Know.

    5 4.95%
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Thread: Should a Man have an Absolute Right to Choose to Abort His Baby?

  1. #541
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    Re: Should a Man have an Absolute Right to Choose to Abort His Baby?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    That's a yes.

    As I said before, the man always has a choice regardless of what the law says. Just as women used to get illegal abortions, men can also use illegal means to enforce their choice. Like women who got illegal abortions, you have to either be smart enough to get away with it, or accept the consequences. It looks like this guy is accepting the consequences.
    All people have the choice to break the law or not. That is a distinction of no significance in this discussion
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

  2. #542
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    Re: Should a Man have an Absolute Right to Choose to Abort His Baby?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sheik Yerbuti View Post
    The problem with your logic is that an embryo is not a person.
    Of course it is.

    Here are the facts:
    ROE v. WADE, Section 9a:
    "A. The appellee and certain amici argue that the fetus is a "person" within the language and meaning of the Fourteenth Amendment. In support of this, they outline at length and in detail the well-known facts of fetal development. If this suggestion of personhood is established, the appellant's case, of course, collapses , [410 U.S. 113, 157] for the fetus' right to life would then be guaranteed specifically by the Amendment. The appellant conceded as much on reargument. 51 On the other hand, the appellee conceded on reargument 52 that no case could be cited that holds that a fetus is a person within the meaning of the Fourteenth Amendment ."
    In the 40 years since Roe we have written laws such as Unborn Victims of Violence Act of 2004 -- Laci and Conner's Law which extends to the unborn rights as a person in over 60 scenarios. This fulfills the Roe Section 9a clause and warrents a SCOTUS revisit to so that Roe can ban abortion.

    The life-cycle of a human begins at fertilization:
    The human life cycle begins at fertilization, when an egg cell inside a woman and a sperm cell from a man fuse to form a one-celled zygote . Over the next few days, the single, large cell divides many times to form a hollow ball of smaller cells. On the sixth day after fertilization....

    Read more: Life Cycle, Human - Biology Encyclopedia - cells, body, process, system, different, DNA, organs, blood, hormone, produce, major
    Brain death marks the end of life, but brain activity does not mark the beginning. The presence of a zygote marks the beginning.

    "Child" 1 and "baby" 1 have pre-birth uses.
    A fetus is a "child" 2 and a "baby" 2 is a "child", thus we can call a fetus a "baby" 3.
    Legally a "child" 4 is one's natural offspring, which is what a pregnant woman carries.
    So, a pregnant woman carries her "child", her "unborn child", her "unborn baby".
    This makes her a "parent", specifically, a “mother”.

    "Organism" = "a living being".
    Human DNA = "human".
    "Organism" + Human DNA = "A Human Being".

    The problem is that the law doesn't always line up with logic. It's one thing to say that the law does not see the embryo as a "person", but it's quite another thing to say an embryo is not a person objectively. Clearly it is, just as black slaves were persons even while the law saw it differently. The law was wrong on slavery, the law was wrong on voting rights not applying to women, and the law is wrong on unborn persons; hence the campaign to change the law.
    Last edited by Jerry; 09-15-13 at 03:44 PM.

  3. #543
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    Re: Should a Man have an Absolute Right to Choose to Abort His Baby?

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    None of the laws you refer are based on the idea that the unborn have rights. They are based on either protecting the woman's right to choose, ir the governments interest in protecting potential human life, an interest that does not exist until the fetus reaches viability.
    Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    Under the constitution, the govt does not have the power to protect the unborn


    govt power to protect is also expressed in criminal law, not just rights.

  4. #544
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    Re: Should a Man have an Absolute Right to Choose to Abort His Baby?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    If that were true then this man would not have been convicted of murder. He would have been convicted of some kind of tampering charge or assault on the mother.
    John Andrew Welden pleads guilty in Tampa abortion pill case

    TAMPA — John Andrew Welden pleaded guilty Monday to federal charges of product tampering and mail fraud, admitting in court, as he had to detectives, that he slipped his ex-girlfriend an abortion drug.

    Seems even according to you, an embryo is not a person.

  5. #545
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    Re: Should a Man have an Absolute Right to Choose to Abort His Baby?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    Of course it is.

    Here are the facts:
    From your quote:
    he appellee conceded on reargument 52 that no case could be cited that holds that a fetus is a person within the meaning of the Fourteenth Amendment ."
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

  6. #546
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    Re: Should a Man have an Absolute Right to Choose to Abort His Baby?

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    All people have the choice to break the law or not. That is a distinction of no significance in this discussion
    You are required to support the decision to brake the law, because you are pro-choice and that's what pro-choice is about. Pro-choice has shown me this to be true when they broke the law to get abortions. Pro-choice does not support only legal choices, but illegal choices as well. Thus pro-choice has no regard for standards or ethics, only that someone made some kind of choice somewhere.

    This man made a choice and you either support him or you are not pro-choice.

  7. #547
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    Re: Should a Man have an Absolute Right to Choose to Abort His Baby?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    Of course it is.

    Here are the facts:


    In the 40 years since Roe we have written laws such as Unborn Victims of Violence Act of 2004 -- Laci and Conner's Law which extends to the unborn rights as a person in over 60 scenarios. This fulfills the Roe Section 9a clause and warrents a SCOTUS revisit to so that Roe can ban abortion.

    The life-cycle of a human begins at fertilization:


    Brain death marks the end of life, but brain activity does not mark the beginning. The presence of a zygote marks the beginning.

    "Child" 1 and "baby" 1 have pre-birth uses.
    A fetus is a "child" 2 and a "baby" 2 is a "child", thus we can call a fetus a "baby" 3.
    Legally a "child" 4 is one's natural offspring, which is what a pregnant woman carries.
    So, a pregnant woman carries her "child", her "unborn child", her "unborn baby".
    This makes her a "parent", specifically, a “mother”.

    "Organism" = "a living being".
    Human DNA = "human".
    "Organism" + Human DNA = "A Human Being".

    The problem is that the law doesn't always line up with logic.
    Backpedalling isn't helping you.

    In response to sangha posting,
    "the unborn are not a person," you just said, "if that were true then this man would not have been convicted of murder. He would have been convicted of some kind of tampering charge or assault on the mother. "

    Well, he wasn't convicted of murder, i.e., it is true "the unborn are not a person." You said so yourself.

  8. #548
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    Re: Should a Man have an Absolute Right to Choose to Abort His Baby?

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    From your quote:


    Yup, keep reading....

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    Re: Should a Man have an Absolute Right to Choose to Abort His Baby?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sheik Yerbuti View Post
    Backpedalling isn't helping you.

    In response to sangha posting,
    "the unborn are not a person," you just said, "if that were true then this man would not have been convicted of murder. He would have been convicted of some kind of tampering charge or assault on the mother. "

    Well, he wasn't convicted of murder, i.e., it is true "the unborn are not a person." You said so yourself.
    Mhmm, I saw that.

    Then I moved on.

  10. #550
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    Re: Should a Man have an Absolute Right to Choose to Abort His Baby?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    You are required to support the decision to brake the law, because you are pro-choice and that's what pro-choice is about. Pro-choice has shown me this to be true when they broke the law to get abortions. Pro-choice does not support only legal choices, but illegal choices as well. Thus pro-choice has no regard for standards or ethics, only that someone made some kind of choice somewhere.

    This man made a choice and you either support him or you are not pro-choice.

    Can you translate that into english?
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

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