View Poll Results: Should a Man have an Absolute Right to abort his baby?

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  • Yes, but only during the first 20 weeks, same as a woman.

    3 2.97%
  • Yes, but only during the initial period when a non-invasive technique works.

    0 0%
  • No, but he should have the right to be legally relieved of all responsibility.

    50 49.50%
  • NO! Only the woman has this right and he remains responsible.

    21 20.79%
  • I oppose all abortion, so neither have the right.

    22 21.78%
  • I Don't Know.

    5 4.95%
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Thread: Should a Man have an Absolute Right to Choose to Abort His Baby?

  1. #501
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    Re: Should a Man have an Absolute Right to Choose to Abort His Baby?

    Quote Originally Posted by lizzie View Post
    It does, but since it's her body which can be affected, it is primarily her responsibility. That being said, when my boys were teenagers, I cautioned them that they would be wise to use birth control methods, as females are often not reliable and/or honest about it, and I made it pretty clear that if they trusted the girl to do so, they could easily be misled and find themselves in a bad situation.
    That should be said of ALL teens - period.

    Girls should be told that about boys, and boys should be told that about girls . . . because it's just true all around.
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    Re: Should a Man have an Absolute Right to Choose to Abort His Baby?

    Well, all of the talk about the morality of the situation and how this or that would make everything more fair, it doesn't make any difference. In the eyes of the law and most people, both parties are responsible for creating a new life, not one more so than the other. Unless there is a rape (which happens more often to women BTW), then BOTH parties agreed to have sex, thus creating a baby. And there is no way people are going to accept a man being able to inadvertently force a woman into having an abortion because he doesn't feel he should have to take any responsibility for his part in the sexual act. It's utterly ridiculous suggestion.

    AND there would still be plenty of irresponsibility to go around, and then WE the taxpayers will be paying for these selfish men's children.

  3. #503
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    Re: Should a Man have an Absolute Right to Choose to Abort His Baby?

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Adverse View Post
    Correct as a matter of "public policy" i.e. current state law. However, law can be changed and this discussion is about the rationale for and against.
    I gave you the obvious rationale. Should I explain it to you again?

    Allowing men to decide when a fetus is aborted would amount to men having control over a woman's body.

    Allowing men the use of "Paper Abortions" would amount to men being able to relinquish the obligations they have towards a child that is 50% there creation.

    Neither is desirable. In fact, I would go so far as to call both evil.

  4. #504
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    Re: Should a Man have an Absolute Right to Choose to Abort His Baby?

    Quote Originally Posted by Excon View Post
    Doesn't matter.

    Consent to sex, is not consent to children.
    It is consent to create offspring, and parents are obliged to be responsible for the well-being of the offspring they create.

    Or they should be at least. In a rational society with laws to reflect such.


    As opposed to an irrational and sexist society that says that men are consenting to create offspring when they have sex, but women are not. Which is what we have right now.

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    Re: Should a Man have an Absolute Right to Choose to Abort His Baby?

    Being an irresponsible jerk isn't limited to either men or women. It applies to both genders. It just so happens that it's the woman who is charged with carrying and incubating an unborn baby. It's the woman who bears the most burden, that is why she is the one who makes the final decision. There is just no way we can allow the male counterpart in the relationship to shirk his part of the responsibility though. Then that places the burden on the rest of us if a woman does choose to go through with the pregnancy anyway.

    In this scenario, it doesn't make things equal in any way, it gives the man power over the woman's decision, her body and the life of the unborn.

  6. #506
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    Re: Should a Man have an Absolute Right to Choose to Abort His Baby?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    A man's child is his buisness.
    Well, there is nothing like simple assertion for proving utter nonsense, is there? Enslaving women is no man's business.

  7. #507
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    Re: Should a Man have an Absolute Right to Choose to Abort His Baby?

    Quote Originally Posted by babilfish View Post
    I gave you the obvious rationale. Should I explain it to you again?

    Allowing men to decide when a fetus is aborted would amount to men having control over a woman's body.

    Allowing men the use of "Paper Abortions" would amount to men being able to relinquish the obligations they have towards a child that is 50% there creation.

    Neither is desirable. In fact, I would go so far as to call both evil.
    You may call it whatever you wish, the fact remains that even when a couple is sincerely TRYING to have a baby there is no more than a 20% chance of success in any single month. That means that even unprotected sex does not automatically produce a baby.
    Discovery Health "Can you get pregnant any time in your monthly cycle?"

    Therefore, having sex does not amount to “consent to having a baby.”

    I, for one, am not arguing for a man’s right to choose whether or not a woman has an abortion. I have stated over and over again (including in the OP) that I support a woman’s absolute right to choose what to do with her body.

    The issue is making an informed choice and then accepting FULL responsibility for that choice. Often-times a woman will make the decision to keep the baby based on emotion or calculation. In the first instance she thinks it is a wonderful idea and assumes the sperm donor would also think so and leap at the chance of marriage and family.

    In the second case the woman is thinking of personal future security, i.e. pressuring the male to marry her so she can live happily ever after. Failing that, she thinks she can get both child support from him and welfare from the state and still live happily ever after.

    The male thought he was just having recreational sex (unless the couple was already married or in a “committed” relationship), and now he finds he has a lifelong duty to this woman and a possible child. In neither case is he likely to be a willing and happy participant. This leads to tragic results, especially for any child caught in such a situation.

    We already have a welfare state, and rules can be modified to ensure that a woman who chooses a child despite a male “opt-out” will only qualify for current child support and day care but not complete welfare benefits for herself. Allowing the man to “opt-out” will require the woman in the situation to consider this factor in time to make a properly informed decision, can I take care of this child on my own or not?
    Last edited by Captain Adverse; 09-15-13 at 12:38 PM.
    If I stop responding it doesn't mean I've conceded the point or agree with you. It only means I've made my point and I don't mind you having the last word. Please wait a few minutes before "quoting" me. I often correct errors for a minute or two after I post before the final product is ready.

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    Re: Should a Man have an Absolute Right to Choose to Abort His Baby?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisL View Post
    Well, all of the talk about the morality of the situation and how this or that would make everything more fair, it doesn't make any difference. In the eyes of the law and most people, both parties are responsible for creating a new life, not one more so than the other. Unless there is a rape (which happens more often to women BTW), then BOTH parties agreed to have sex, thus creating a baby. And there is no way people are going to accept a man being able to inadvertently force a woman into having an abortion because he doesn't feel he should have to take any responsibility for his part in the sexual act. It's utterly ridiculous suggestion.
    Although the OP mentions the possibility of giving the man some right to choose abortion, you also see that in my very first response on page one that I do not support that. The right to choose rests absolutely with the woman as far as I am concerned. However, the issue should be about making an informed decision and then accepting FULL responsibility for it. Trying to force an unwilling male that both KNOW did not intend nor want a baby into a lifelong relationship creates lifelong problems for all parties concerned.

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisL View Post
    You are the one trying to force taxpayers to pay for the child. If the father is not responsible, then a lot of times the mother will just collect welfare for herself and the child. So the choice is yours, either the father pays for his child or you let him walk away without any kind of responsibility and we all pay instead.
    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisL View Post
    Being an irresponsible jerk isn't limited to either men or women. It applies to both genders. It just so happens that it's the woman who is charged with carrying and incubating an unborn baby. It's the woman who bears the most burden, that is why she is the one who makes the final decision. There is just no way we can allow the male counterpart in the relationship to shirk his part of the responsibility though. Then that places the burden on the rest of us if a woman does choose to go through with the pregnancy anyway.

    In this scenario, it doesn't make things equal in any way, it gives the man power over the woman's decision, her body and the life of the unborn.
    So your answer is allowing an irresponsible female to have a baby and then force her equally irresponsible male sperm donor to help her act irresponsibly in raising a child?

    I am going to let other women address the points you raised in your comments:

    Quote Originally Posted by lizzie View Post
    I personally think it's the woman's responsibility to make sure that she doesn't get pregnant since it is her body, and solely her choice when it comes to the future of the baby.
    Quote Originally Posted by lizzie View Post
    They do, but on this issue, since the woman has all the rights, I believe the primary responsibility lies on her shoulders. People want to have it both ways, and have their cake and eat it too. This is one of those issues where men can really get screwed, and have no say in the matter whatsoever.

    I realize that being a woman, I'm "supposed" to look at this from a woman's point of view, but before I am a woman, I am a human, and I can see that men really are at a disadvantage on this issue. Since women neglect to protect themselves from unwanted pregnancies, I encourage men to take care of the birth control issue themselves, but that's because it is the intelligent thing to do.
    Quote Originally Posted by SmokeAndMirrors View Post
    … For women who truly cannot support their children on their own, child support is usually a drop in the bucket. It doesn't even begin to cover the true expense. Plenty of women get both child support and assistance.

    Also, a woman who is so poor she cannot afford her children probably didn't have them with a rich man. Oftentimes, he can't afford the payments. So a lot of the time, he doesn't pay at all. It's relatively easy to get out of child support payments. Even if he doesn't and his wages are garnished, that can effectively put him on the dole himself, in addition to doing almost nothing to help the woman since his wages are so small to begin with. You will likely still wind up with at least one person on welfare in this situation -- which applies to an awful lot of people.

    Second, the reality is that it is the child of the one who accepts responsibility for it. A woman who puts a child up for adoption is not responsible for its well-being despite the fact that she is responsible for its existence. Why should a man, who has basically done the same thing, be forced to pay where a woman isn't?

    …a bio mother who put her child up for adoption even MORE than it applies to a man who wrote away his rights: a child put for up adoption will almost certainly require public support. By your logic, adoption shouldn't be allowed due to the near-certainty of the child requiring public support.

    For that matter, it could apply to public schooling. Why do we pay for the education of a child you made?

    Also, the fact that this conversation always goes in one direction: money from the man to the woman. Women can work these days, and there are single fathers too. Why do we always talk about this in the subliminal context of the "weaker sex"?

    But the reality is this. First, that child support does not cure ills. In some instances, it simply makes more. Second, that we live in a society that is sufficiently complex that none of us can be said to be truly independent. And third, that even if neither of those were the case, it somehow justifies forcing a man to spend his life and income a certain way for something he had no say in.
    Quote Originally Posted by SmokeAndMirrors View Post
    What it is, I think, is the lack of emphasis on empowerment for ones own choices. We talk about responsibility in the context of punishment so often, in everything from the abortion debate to employment. There's no pride or empowerment in rising to the occasion.
    Last edited by Captain Adverse; 09-15-13 at 12:56 PM.
    If I stop responding it doesn't mean I've conceded the point or agree with you. It only means I've made my point and I don't mind you having the last word. Please wait a few minutes before "quoting" me. I often correct errors for a minute or two after I post before the final product is ready.

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    Re: Should a Man have an Absolute Right to Choose to Abort His Baby?

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Adverse View Post
    Although the OP mentions the possibility of giving the man some right to choose abortion, you also see that in my very first response on page one that I do not support that. The right to choose rests absolutely with the woman as far as I am concerned. However, the issue should be about making an informed decision and then accepting FULL responsibility for it. Trying to force an unwilling male that both KNOW did not intend nor want a baby into a lifelong relationship creates lifelong problems for all parties concerned.
    Yes, the man made a fully informed decision just as much as the female did when he agreed to have sex. Neither party is more innocent than the other, and you are trying to place more responsibility on the female because of biological factors which cannot be changed or controlled. There is no 100% effective form of birth control, so if you don't want to accept responsibility for your actions then you should not sleep with any females unless you are married to them and keep your penis safely inside your trousers.



    So your answer is allowing an irresponsible female to have a baby and then force her equally irresponsible male sperm donor to help her act irresponsibly in raising a child?

    I am going to let other women address the points you raised in your comments:
    This is irrelevant because it does absolutely nothing to address the problems of irresponsibility. You are just transferring it from the father/mother to the rest of society. Women and men are still going to have sex, and children are going to result from these unions. It's best that you charge the parents who created the life with the responsibility.

    And if you think about, the woman who would want to keep the baby is actually accepting the responsibility for her actions, whereas you want to be able to absolve the man of the same responsibilities that result from his irresponsible behavior. Your claims and your arguments are just bogus.

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    Re: Should a Man have an Absolute Right to Choose to Abort His Baby?

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    Under the constitution, the govt does not have the power to protect the unborn
    This post of yours is absolutely and empirically untrue. There are valid laws in place that not only protect the unborn, there are laws that help their development and health. There are also criminal sanctions against those that harm the unborn in the commission of assaults of various degrees upon them or their mother.

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