View Poll Results: Should a Man have an Absolute Right to abort his baby?

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  • Yes, but only during the first 20 weeks, same as a woman.

    3 2.97%
  • Yes, but only during the initial period when a non-invasive technique works.

    0 0%
  • No, but he should have the right to be legally relieved of all responsibility.

    50 49.50%
  • NO! Only the woman has this right and he remains responsible.

    21 20.79%
  • I oppose all abortion, so neither have the right.

    22 21.78%
  • I Don't Know.

    5 4.95%
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Thread: Should a Man have an Absolute Right to Choose to Abort His Baby?

  1. #471
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    Re: Should a Man have an Absolute Right to Choose to Abort His Baby?

    I would no more expect a man to have veto power over a woman's body and her life than I would expect a woman to have control/demand access to her husband/boyfriends sperm.

    As the old saying goes, if you can't serve the time, don't do the crime.
    "Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views." William F. Buckley Jr.

  2. #472
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    Re: Should a Man have an Absolute Right to Choose to Abort His Baby?

    Quote Originally Posted by Excon View Post
    Well we are getting close to the 500 post mark and currently the
    No, but he should have the right to be legally relieved of all responsibility.
    is in the lead.

    And some folks think it wont eventually happen. Yeah right.
    Wise up. It is going to. It is only right and fair.
    In my view, this will never, ever happen for one simple reason - if the father of a child isn't responsible for the financial wellbeing of his child, the child will, in all likelihood, become a financial burden on the state. The state will never pass a law that makes them the child's supporter by default. And as a taxpayer, you should never support any law that makes the state "daddy".
    "Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views." William F. Buckley Jr.

  3. #473
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    Re: Should a Man have an Absolute Right to Choose to Abort His Baby?

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadaJohn View Post
    In my view, this will never, ever happen for one simple reason - if the father of a child isn't responsible for the financial wellbeing of his child, the child will, in all likelihood, become a financial burden on the state. The state will never pass a law that makes them the child's supporter by default. And as a taxpayer, you should never support any law that makes the state "daddy".
    Eh... this is making a lot of assumptions.

    First of all, that child support payments prevent this. That isn't true.

    For women who truly cannot support their children on their own, child support is usually a drop in the bucket. It doesn't even begin to cover the true expense. Plenty of women get both child support and assistance.

    Also, a woman who is so poor she cannot afford her children probably didn't have them with a rich man. Oftentimes, he can't afford the payments. So a lot of the time, he doesn't pay at all. It's relatively easy to get out of child support payments. Even if he doesn't and his wages are garnished, that can effectively put him on the dole himself, in addition to doing almost nothing to help the woman since his wages are so small to begin with. You will likely still wind up with at least one person on welfare in this situation -- which applies to an awful lot of people.

    Second, the reality is that it is the child of the one who accepts responsibility for it. A woman who puts a child up for adoption is not responsible for its well-being despite the fact that she is responsible for its existence. Why should a man, who has basically done the same thing, be forced to pay where a woman isn't?

    Your argument would apply to a bio mother who put her child up for adoption even MORE than it applies to a man who wrote away his rights: a child put for up adoption will almost certainly require public support. By your logic, adoption shouldn't be allowed due to the near-certainty of the child requiring public support.

    For that matter, it could apply to public schooling. Why do we pay for the education of a child you made?

    Also, the fact that this conversation always goes in one direction: money from the man to the woman. Women can work these days, and there are single fathers too. Why do we always talk about this in the subliminal context of the "weaker sex"?

    This gets really screwy and hypocritical really fast.

    But the reality is this. First, that child support does not cure ills. In some instances, it simply makes more. Second, that we live in a society that is sufficiently complex that none of us can be said to be truly independent. And third, that even if neither of those were the case, it somehow justifies forcing a man to spend his life and income a certain way for something he had no say in.

  4. #474
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    Re: Should a Man have an Absolute Right to Choose to Abort His Baby?

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Adverse View Post
    Entering my house requires "mutual consent," what you do in it requires MY consent.
    Entering your house does not produce a child for which you are financially liable for the next 18 years.

  5. #475
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    Re: Should a Man have an Absolute Right to Choose to Abort His Baby?

    Quote Originally Posted by SmokeAndMirrors View Post
    Eh... this is making a lot of assumptions.

    First of all, that child support payments prevent this. That isn't true.

    For women who truly cannot support their children on their own, child support is usually a drop in the bucket. It doesn't even begin to cover the true expense. Plenty of women get both child support and assistance.

    Also, a woman who is so poor she cannot afford her children probably didn't have them with a rich man. Oftentimes, he can't afford the payments. So a lot of the time, he doesn't pay at all. It's relatively easy to get out of child support payments. Even if he doesn't and his wages are garnished, that can effectively put him on the dole himself, in addition to doing almost nothing to help the woman since his wages are so small to begin with. You will likely still wind up with at least one person on welfare in this situation -- which applies to an awful lot of people.

    Second, the reality is that it is the child of the one who accepts responsibility for it. A woman who puts a child up for adoption is not responsible for its well-being despite the fact that she is responsible for its existence. Why should a man, who has basically done the same thing, be forced to pay where a woman isn't?

    Your argument would apply to a bio mother who put her child up for adoption even MORE than it applies to a man who wrote away his rights: a child put for up adoption will almost certainly require public support. By your logic, adoption shouldn't be allowed due to the near-certainty of the child requiring public support.

    For that matter, it could apply to public schooling. Why do we pay for the education of a child you made?

    Also, the fact that this conversation always goes in one direction: money from the man to the woman. Women can work these days, and there are single fathers too. Why do we always talk about this in the subliminal context of the "weaker sex"?

    This gets really screwy and hypocritical really fast.

    But the reality is this. First, that child support does not cure ills. In some instances, it simply makes more. Second, that we live in a society that is sufficiently complex that none of us can be said to be truly independent. And third, that even if neither of those were the case, it somehow justifies forcing a man to spend his life and income a certain way for something he had no say in.
    I don't disagree with anything you've said here - my point, in a brief and flippant way, was that the state will never pass a law that makes it more likely that the state will become financially responsible for a child. We can discuss the exceptions to the rule and I don't belittle any single woman who chooses to keep her child, but the evidence would be pretty clear that most single mothers today are reliant in some part on the state for assistance in the financial responsibilities of child rearing. A single father would likely be no different. It's why governments all over the western world set up offices that garnishee wages from men reluctant to pay their child support so that they can ensure fewer tax dollars are spent helping that child mature and why in extreme cases they'll imprison a father who fails to pay.
    "Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views." William F. Buckley Jr.

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    Re: Should a Man have an Absolute Right to Choose to Abort His Baby?

    Befor making the 'in my house' analogy, ask yourself if you really want to go down the road of squatters rights, eminent domain and right-of-way.

    You cannot just kick your born child out of your house. That is illegal. So by default that argument is against you.

    If you do want to go down that road, then were first going to want to verify that the woman's body meets local code, and if it doesn't (ie she's out of shape or ill) then were going to revoke her body's habitability certificet, close it and have it demolished.

    Just think about what you say before you say it.

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    Re: Should a Man have an Absolute Right to Choose to Abort His Baby?

    Quote Originally Posted by Excon View Post
    Wrong!
    I am correct.

  8. #478
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    Re: Should a Man have an Absolute Right to Choose to Abort His Baby?

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadaJohn View Post
    I don't disagree with anything you've said here - my point, in a brief and flippant way, was that the state will never pass a law that makes it more likely that the state will become financially responsible for a child. We can discuss the exceptions to the rule and I don't belittle any single woman who chooses to keep her child, but the evidence would be pretty clear that most single mothers today are reliant in some part on the state for assistance in the financial responsibilities of child rearing. A single father would likely be no different. It's why governments all over the western world set up offices that garnishee wages from men reluctant to pay their child support so that they can ensure fewer tax dollars are spent helping that child mature and why in extreme cases they'll imprison a father who fails to pay.
    Ah, ok.

    And what's interesting about the whole thing is that, in many cases where the custodial parent both gets support and assistance, the child support payer pays directly to the government, not the custodial parent, where some of the payment is then kept for the government. Basically, it's reducing the effectiveness of child support to an even lower level than it already is and creating more of a need for the welfare state.

    It's one of the many ways in which there is a welfare mindset. And to be clear, I don't think the mere existence of welfare creates a welfare state. We had welfare for many decades without the kind of entitlement climate that we have today.

    What it is, I think, is the lack of emphasis on empowerment for ones own choices. We talk about responsibility in the context of punishment so often, in everything from the abortion debate to employment. There's no pride or empowerment in rising to the occasion.

  9. #479
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    Re: Should a Man have an Absolute Right to Choose to Abort His Baby?

    Quote Originally Posted by SmokeAndMirrors View Post
    Ah, ok.

    And what's interesting about the whole thing is that, in many cases where the custodial parent both gets support and assistance, the child support payer pays directly to the government, not the custodial parent, where some of the payment is then kept for the government. Basically, it's reducing the effectiveness of child support to an even lower level than it already is and creating more of a need for the welfare state.

    It's one of the many ways in which there is a welfare mindset. And to be clear, I don't think the mere existence of welfare creates a welfare state. We had welfare for many decades without the kind of entitlement climate that we have today.

    What it is, I think, is the lack of emphasis on empowerment for ones own choices. We talk about responsibility in the context of punishment so often, in everything from the abortion debate to employment. There's no pride or empowerment in rising to the occasion.
    Again, I agree. Perhaps you're left with the impression that I don't think a man should be able to forfeit all rights/responsibilities to a pregancy he opposes - I don't have any objection to that - it does seem fair - I just don't think it will ever be legislated for the reasons stated. Being a man, I'm not worried about women having this particular biological advantage considering that men have a multitude of their own biological advantages and no man can ever claim to be duped into an unwanted pregnancy - that's just a non-started with me.
    "Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views." William F. Buckley Jr.

  10. #480
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    Re: Should a Man have an Absolute Right to Choose to Abort His Baby?

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Adverse View Post
    I did see that suggestion. The problem is it would not work, because as other members have stated many courts hold that "the needs of the child trump the desires of the father." That's the basis of the case Minnie616 posted; where a lesbian couple placed an ad for a sperm donor so they could have a child. A sperm donor provided a "sample" but the lesbian couple later broke up. Now the "mother" is suing the sperm donor for child support. There may well be other cases where "sperm donors" have been held accountable in state courts for child support, I don't know. But unless there is some legal recourse created, currently even your idea would not work.

    It would be nice though.
    Actually in the article I posted the state was suing the sperm donor for child support so that the state would not have to support the child.

    The mother had a signed a contract that the sperm donor had given up parental rights.
    When it comes to matters of reproduce health, Politicians and the religious dogma of another faith should never interfere with religious liberty of an individual or her faith.

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