View Poll Results: Should a Man have an Absolute Right to abort his baby?

Voters
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  • Yes, but only during the first 20 weeks, same as a woman.

    3 2.97%
  • Yes, but only during the initial period when a non-invasive technique works.

    0 0%
  • No, but he should have the right to be legally relieved of all responsibility.

    50 49.50%
  • NO! Only the woman has this right and he remains responsible.

    21 20.79%
  • I oppose all abortion, so neither have the right.

    22 21.78%
  • I Don't Know.

    5 4.95%
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Thread: Should a Man have an Absolute Right to Choose to Abort His Baby?

  1. #1431
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    Re: Should a Man have an Absolute Right to Choose to Abort His Baby?

    Quote Originally Posted by SmokeAndMirrors View Post
    There is no possible system that could do that, with the present limitations of medicine. Our present system presents substantial harm to all parties involved. And likely, any other system would too.

    But that ain't the point. You aren't reading.

    The point is that people have fundamental rights to their own person. If the possibility of negative outcomes is unavoidable -- and it is -- at least I can say I support the only position that doesn't impose harm in itself by treating one sex or the other as a servant or an idiot, either of which need to be controlled by a denial of rights.
    Well, I'd like to reply to your post, but can you give me a bit more clarification on what you meant regarding the highlighted comment at the end of your post?

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    Re: Should a Man have an Absolute Right to Choose to Abort His Baby?

    Quote Originally Posted by SmokeAndMirrors View Post
    Well, obviously. I'm just saying it's impossible for you to say that for certain.

    Sure it does. If you don't see someone, you can't look at them.

    Like I said, plenty of women actually do this. It isn't tough.
    I have just come to the realization that Sangha is merely a "contrarian." He simply "asserts" something and thus it becomes a "proven fact." He simply states the opposite of your position and this becomes a "proven fact."

    I suppose it is possible that if he has had very few heterosexual experiences and remained in constant visual contact with all of the women he did have such experiences with he could state with some certainty he has never gotten anyone pregnant. It's also possible if he has always been celibate, or has never been interested in sex with a woman.

    He can also state that if a man stays in constant visual contact with a woman from conception until birth, eventually he will notice changes in her body indicative of pregnancy. What he cannot state with such absolute certainty is that ALL men do so, and that those who don't WILL KNOW when a woman they have slept with has gotten pregnant, had an abortion, or had the baby.

    He also keeps focusing on the issue of child support, which is only one of the many concerns with having an unwanted child. In any case he will simply make absolute statements contradicting whatever is said, and then "accept your surrender" when you get tired of responding.
    Last edited by Captain Adverse; 09-23-13 at 06:40 PM.
    If I stop responding it doesn't mean I've conceded the point or agree with you. It only means I've made my point and I don't mind you having the last word. Please wait a few minutes before "quoting" me. I often correct errors for a minute or two after I post before the final product is ready.

  3. #1433
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    Re: Should a Man have an Absolute Right to Choose to Abort His Baby?

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Adverse View Post
    I have just come to the realization that Sangha is merely a "contrarian." He simply "asserts" something and thus it becomes a "proven fact." He simply states the opposite of your position and this becomes a "proven fact."

    I suppose it is possible that if he has had very few heterosexual experiences and remained in constant visual contact with all of the women he did have such experiences with he could state with some certainty he has never gotten anyone pregnant. It's also possible if he has always been celibate, or has never been interested in sex with a woman.

    He can also state that if a man stays in constant visual contact with a woman from conception until birth, eventually he will notice changes in her body indicative of pregnancy. What he cannot state with such absolute certainty is that ALL men do so, and that those who don't WILL KNOW when a woman they have slept with has gotten pregnant, had and abortion, or had the baby.

    He also keeps focusing on the issue of child support, which is only one of the many concerns with having an unwanted child. In any case he will simply make absolute statements contradicting whatever is said, and then "accept your surrender" when you get tired of responding.
    I cannot state that all men do what I have done, but I can state with certainty that their actions were ones that they chose to engage in. Men have choices

    And I focus on child support because that was the issue your OP focused on
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

  4. #1434
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    Re: Should a Man have an Absolute Right to Choose to Abort His Baby?

    Well....on a bright note, it is nice that only 3 folks in the poll thought that a man has the right to force a woman to abort.

  5. #1435
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    Re: Should a Man have an Absolute Right to Choose to Abort His Baby?

    Well (once you remove the Pro-Life votes), here's the real breakdown so far:

    68% indicate a man should have a right to opt-out. (50 votes counting 1 member who posted that he accidentally voted "I don't know.")
    22% indicate a man should adhere to the status quo. (16 votes)
    5% indicate they don't know. (4 votes)
    4% indicate a man should have a right to require abortion. (3 votes)

    As stated, the pro-life option was only added to prevent complaints from members about not having a "choice" to vote for. I'm all about "choice."

    I do want to personally thank the pro-life members who've gotten into the spirit of the discussion and posted hypothetical comments for purposes of debate.
    Last edited by Captain Adverse; 09-23-13 at 10:40 PM.
    If I stop responding it doesn't mean I've conceded the point or agree with you. It only means I've made my point and I don't mind you having the last word. Please wait a few minutes before "quoting" me. I often correct errors for a minute or two after I post before the final product is ready.

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    Re: Should a Man have an Absolute Right to Choose to Abort His Baby?

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Adverse View Post
    I have just come to the realization that Sangha is merely a "contrarian." He simply "asserts" something and thus it becomes a "proven fact." He simply states the opposite of your position and this becomes a "proven fact."

    I suppose it is possible that if he has had very few heterosexual experiences and remained in constant visual contact with all of the women he did have such experiences with he could state with some certainty he has never gotten anyone pregnant. It's also possible if he has always been celibate, or has never been interested in sex with a woman.

    He can also state that if a man stays in constant visual contact with a woman from conception until birth, eventually he will notice changes in her body indicative of pregnancy. What he cannot state with such absolute certainty is that ALL men do so, and that those who don't WILL KNOW when a woman they have slept with has gotten pregnant, had an abortion, or had the baby.

    He also keeps focusing on the issue of child support, which is only one of the many concerns with having an unwanted child. In any case he will simply make absolute statements contradicting whatever is said, and then "accept your surrender" when you get tired of responding.
    Ah, yes, I forgot, you're new-ish.

    It's almost impressive at times, watching the act, isn't it?

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    Re: Should a Man have an Absolute Right to Choose to Abort His Baby?

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    It doesn't require stalking. All it requires is a look.

    In fact, the father doesn't have to be the one who looks. He can have someone he trusts take a look and report back to him.
    Wow, that's not creepy at all.

    I can see it now: a horde of men enlisting spies on their ex-girlfriends for the next year, following them to each medical appointment, staring at their abdomens.

    Pretty sure you can be prosecuted for that.

  8. #1438
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    Re: Should a Man have an Absolute Right to Choose to Abort His Baby?

    Quote Originally Posted by SmokeAndMirrors View Post
    Wow, that's not creepy at all.

    I can see it now: a horde of men enlisting spies on their ex-girlfriends for the next year, following them to each medical appointment, staring at their abdomens.

    Pretty sure you can be prosecuted for that.
    Looking isn't stalking.

    If you're talking about some guy who bangs random female strangers he just met, I could see how that man could lose contact with the girl. However, by having sex with such women, he has demonstrated a lack of concern about the possible offspring he has created.
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

  9. #1439
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    Re: Should a Man have an Absolute Right to Choose to Abort His Baby?

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    Looking isn't stalking.

    If you're talking about some guy who bangs random female strangers he just met, I could see how that man could lose contact with the girl. However, by having sex with such women, he has demonstrated a lack of concern about the possible offspring he has created.
    we have no idea who the bio-dad for my oldest adopted son is. his crackhead mother slept with so many guys that she doesn't have a clue. before the adoption, she accused at least 8 guys of being the baby daddy and DNA test ruled them all out
    The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter.

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    Re: Should a Man have an Absolute Right to Choose to Abort His Baby?

    RECAP of variables.

    The biggie complaint by mainly men:

    Current laws allow unilateral control for women to legally deprive a man of his right to become a parent...or force him to become one against his will.

    The following categories are probably the most considered elements involved:


    Abortion vetoing

    If a man impregnates a woman with the explicit goal of having a child, in a manner that is mutually consensual, then it would be morally unacceptable for that woman to later have an abortion.

    Pregnancy vetoing

    If one grants a man veto power over a woman’s choice to have an abortion in cases where he is willing to pay for the child, why not grant him the right to demand an abortion where he is unwilling to provide for the child?

    Opting out:

    Captain Adverse made available a source the author created a theory called "Male Abortion" in which she argues that men should be able to terminate their legal and financial obligations to unwanted children...based on constitutional gender-equality. (I personally think substantive due process is an issue)


    Opting in (this is hard to articulate...soooo)

    It is also possible, rather than taking the stance that men should have the freedom to opt out of inherent responsibilities and rights, to take the stance that one must opt-in and agree to undertake those responsibilities to be compelled to follow them, and only through doing so, earn parental rights. This is what occurs during adoption.

    Unilateral Control

    A huge can of worms no matter which party possesses it.

    Very light version of objection (list too long)

    Those who object to men having a right to direct involvement argue that because it is the woman who carries the couple's unborn, her determination for or against abortion should be the definitive one and that embryo or fetus is within the woman's body, it can't be separated from her, so it's not just her decision-making about whether to bear a child, it's about her body and potential related consequences. (reasons are considerably more complex than this - so don't drop the hammer)

    So far I haven't seen any solutions which exempts potential harm to any or all of the parties involved
    The issue that I see is that there appears to be the existence of a special case of substantive due process jurisprudence (theory or a philosophical element of due process), which are those rights which involve a degree of "third-party harm"; that is, the chance that someone or something else may suffer by exercise of the right.

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