View Poll Results: Should a Man have an Absolute Right to abort his baby?

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  • Yes, but only during the first 20 weeks, same as a woman.

    3 2.97%
  • Yes, but only during the initial period when a non-invasive technique works.

    0 0%
  • No, but he should have the right to be legally relieved of all responsibility.

    50 49.50%
  • NO! Only the woman has this right and he remains responsible.

    21 20.79%
  • I oppose all abortion, so neither have the right.

    22 21.78%
  • I Don't Know.

    5 4.95%
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Thread: Should a Man have an Absolute Right to Choose to Abort His Baby?

  1. #1411
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    Re: Should a Man have an Absolute Right to Choose to Abort His Baby?

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    If the father objects, the court will not allow her to give the kid up for adoption
    Unless she just never tells them who the father is. Plenty of women don't.

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    Re: Should a Man have an Absolute Right to Choose to Abort His Baby?

    Still treating this issue that degrades the role and the significance of the mother and merely makes them tools I see. Is it the yearning for the glorification of Rome and the time when the father was the one decided whether to keep the baby or not (no abortion at the time) the issue here?

    Sometimes some threads last so long needlessly that it amazes me. Just wanted to let you all now.
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  3. #1413
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    Re: Should a Man have an Absolute Right to Choose to Abort His Baby?

    Quote Originally Posted by Korimyr the Rat View Post
    That doesn't answer the question.
    If you don' understand the answer, that doesn't mean it's not an answer


    No, they do not. They have the option to "keep their legs shut if they don't want a baby", which you would be the first person to accuse me of being misogynist if I applied the same argument to women.
    Men have several options
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

  4. #1414
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    Re: Should a Man have an Absolute Right to Choose to Abort His Baby?

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Adverse View Post
    The key is "if the father is known;" not by the woman but by the authority she is submitting the child for adoption to. Furthermore, the male can't do anything unless she has told him she is pregnant, so he won't necessarily know that he has a child to assert any rights to.

    She may very well know who the father is, but she does not have to admit it. In cases where there is no husband she can simply tell the hospital she does NOT know, sign the paperwork giving up the baby for adoption, and that's all there is to it. She has fully opted out for both her and the male.

    Beyond the hospital option there is also the "baby drop off" option in some states where all a woman has to do is drop the baby off at a church, hospital, or fire station and then simply disappear. In either case unless the male knew about the prenancy and actively seeks the child, she's just opted-out for both of them. These are clear pro-life option's for women opposed to abortion but who do not wish to raise a child.

    Even if the male knows, it's possible for the woman to simply claim she had a miscarriage. Only a husband might know better since they share the medical bills.

    It is also disingenuous to presume every male will KNOW a girl he slept with is pregnant. Why? Some engaged in one-night stands; some in short-term hook-ups; some in moderate-term "relationships;" some in long-term but not live-in relationships; some in long-term relationships in which she "takes a break" and he might not see here for a few months. Hell, there's even the possibility in a marriage where the husband is away like a soldier on overseas duty. In each case the woman is in total control of not only her decision to abort, but also her decision to place the child up for adoption. In each case she can also decide to tell him and he is stuck with the obligations.

    Are the members arguing against SAM's position really that myopic; only seeing things one absolute way?? The man MUST know? Really? REALLY?!?!

    Women abort without telling men all the time. Many women also simply give the child up for adoption without ever telling the male she gave birth. Thus the woman can uniltarally opt-out of childbirth either via abortion, or simply by not telling the male and then abandoning the child for adoption. However, if she tells him and she states she is keeping it...he's stuck.

    That is inequitable, and all your fallacious arguments do not balance the equation. Those arguments do not address the essential question, why does she get to unilaterally decide for both when it comes to keeping a child?
    IOW, a man screws some girl he barely knows, doesn't make any attempt to see her over the next 270 days, and then when the baby is given up for adoption, his rights are somehow being abused because he doesn't have to pay a dime in support?

    Or if she has the baby, it's unfair because both the mother and the father have to support their child?
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

  5. #1415
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    Re: Should a Man have an Absolute Right to Choose to Abort His Baby?

    Quote Originally Posted by SmokeAndMirrors View Post
    Unless she just stops coming around him. In that case, it's extremely easy to hide, and plenty of women do it.
    Ahh, I see!

    The man is completely powerless to do anything! He can't possibly even see a woman if the woman doesn't want him to see her.

    Woman are omnipotent like that
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

  6. #1416
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    Re: Should a Man have an Absolute Right to Choose to Abort His Baby?

    Quote Originally Posted by SmokeAndMirrors View Post
    Unless she just never tells them who the father is. Plenty of women don't.
    Wrong

    The father can tell the court or the hospital that he's the father.
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

  7. #1417
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    Re: Should a Man have an Absolute Right to Choose to Abort His Baby?

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    IOW, a man screws some girl he barely knows, doesn't make any attempt to see her over the next 270 days, and then when the baby is given up for adoption, his rights are somehow being abused because he doesn't have to pay a dime in support?

    Or if she has the baby, it's unfair because both the mother and the father have to support their child?
    Sangha, please stop looking at one "tree" and realize there is a "forest" here.

    Yes, it is unfair. Suppose the man WANTED a child but the woman did not? She still gets to abort even if he is aware of the pregnancy, OR she can give the child up for adoption without letting him know she was ever pregnant. That is one side of the coin you keep ignoring! SHE has made the decision NOT to have a child for BOTH of them! Those of us in favor of Pro-Choice don't argue against this because we accept it is her body going through the changes, and we also acknowledge maybe she is not ready for the responsibilities of raising a child.

    However, apparently it does not matter if the MAN does not want a child because he is not ready for such responsibility, either financially or personally.

    Stop focusing on "child support." That is only one aspect of many concerns arising from having a child which go well beyond mere financial support as everyone should know; they've been expressed many times in this thread. The issue under discussion is CHOICE, of which the man has absolutely NONE!
    If I stop responding it doesn't mean I've conceded the point or agree with you. It only means I've made my point and I don't mind you having the last word. Please wait a few minutes before "quoting" me. I often correct errors for a minute or two after I post before the final product is ready.

  8. #1418
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    Re: Should a Man have an Absolute Right to Choose to Abort His Baby?

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Adverse View Post
    Sangha, please stop looking at one "tree" and realize there is a "forest" here.

    Yes, it is unfair. Suppose the man WANTED a child but the woman did not?
    Then he should have sex with a woman who wants to have his child

    She still gets to abort even if he is aware of the pregnancy, OR she can give the child up for adoption without letting him know she was ever pregnant.
    I have proven this wrong. A father can withold consent for an adoption, and can easily determine if a female is pregnant.

    That is one side of the coin you keep ignoring! SHE has made the decision NOT to have a child for BOTH of them! Those of us in favor of Pro-Choice don't argue against this because we accept it is her body going through the changes, and we also acknowledge maybe she is not ready for the responsibilities of raising a child.

    However, apparently it does not matter if the MAN does not want a child because he is not ready for such responsibility, either financially or personally.

    Stop focusing on "child support." That is only one aspect of many concerns arising from having a child which go well beyond mere financial support as everyone should know; they've been expressed many times in this thread. The issue under discussion is CHOICE, of which the man has absolutely NONE!
    You already agree that the woman has a right to have an abortion. Stop pretending that you object to this.

    The issue is whether a man has a right to not support a child of his. He does not. Not legally, and not morally.

    And please stop claiming that men have no choices. That is a lie.
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

  9. #1419
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    Re: Should a Man have an Absolute Right to Choose to Abort His Baby?

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    I have proven this wrong. A father can withold consent for an adoption, and can easily determine if a female is pregnant.
    NO, you have NOT "proven this wrong." You've merely asserted it is wrong. The fact is that I have listed several regularly occurring situations where the male would NOT know she was pregnant. That you ignore this and continue to assert otherwise is confusing, since it is clear to everyone but you.

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    You already agree that the woman has a right to have an abortion. Stop pretending that you object to this.
    Where did you get the idea that I "object to this?" Of course I accept it, I merely acknowledge it as one facet of her unilateral power. The obverse power is to unilaterally keep the child and thus trap the male in a lifelong series of obligations.

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    The issue is whether a man has a right to not support a child of his. He does not. Not legally, and not morally.
    NO, that is the issue as YOU seem to see it. This issue is about inequity and a males lack of CHOICE. That lack of choice compels child support, and all the other baggage that comes with a resented obligation...including the possibilities of an unwanted marriage, child abuse, spousal abuse, divorce, legal battles over support modifications, harassment, emotional conflicts between all parties, etc., etc., etc.

    The woman can unilaterally decide not to deal with any of this by either abortion or placing the child up for adoption. Conversely, she can decide to have the child and require the male to "participate" in caring for it. In both instances the man has no choice.

    Well if the man has no choice in her opting out, this should be balanced by his right to opt-out too.

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    And please stop claiming that men have no choices. That is a lie.
    It is NOT a lie, even though you keep making that ridiculous comment "he can abort if he has a child." You really need to drop that line, it's a silly statement and really unworthy of debate.

    Prior to conception (which only you and the other "blame game" people argue about) the ONLY choice he has is whether or not to have sex with the woman using a condom. Even there the final decision rests with the woman who controls what happens and can simply refuse sex unless he uses contraception. After conception (which is what everyone but you seems to be talking about), condom or not, she has unilateral power to make the choices for BOTH of them. He has NO CHOICE in that matter.
    Last edited by Captain Adverse; 09-23-13 at 03:57 PM.
    If I stop responding it doesn't mean I've conceded the point or agree with you. It only means I've made my point and I don't mind you having the last word. Please wait a few minutes before "quoting" me. I often correct errors for a minute or two after I post before the final product is ready.

  10. #1420
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    Re: Should a Man have an Absolute Right to Choose to Abort His Baby?

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Adverse View Post
    NO, you have NOT "proven this wrong." You've merely asserted it is wrong. The fact is that I have listed several regularly occurring situations where the male would NOT know she was pregnant. That you ignore this and continue to assert otherwise is confusing, since it is clear to everyone but you.
    And again, I have demonstrated that

    1) it is easy for a man to find out if a female is pregnant

    2) If the baby is given up for adoption, the man has no financial obligation to support it



    Where did you get the idea that I "object to this?" Of course I accept it, I merely acknowledge it as one facet of her unilateral power. The obverse power is to unilaterally keep the child and thus trap the male in a lifelong series of obligations.
    Unless you believe in immaculate conception, no woman has the unilateral power to trap a male into being a father.


    NO, that is the issue as YOU seem to see it.
    It is also the issue as YOU described it in your OP

    This issue is about inequity and a males lack of CHOICE.
    1) Men don't lack the ability to choose to have a child.

    2) The fact that someone doesn't have the SAME *choices* is of no concern to the law. The law is concerned with people having the same *rights*

    That lack of choice compels child support, and all the other baggage that comes with a resented obligation...including the possibilities of an unwanted marriage, child abuse, spousal abuse, divorce, legal battles over support modifications, harassment, emotional conflicts between all parties, etc., etc., etc.
    Men do have choices.


    The woman can unilaterally decide not to deal with any of this by either abortion or placing the child up for adoption. Conversely, she can decide to have the child and require the male to "participate" in caring for it. In both instances the man has no choice.
    Nope. Women can't unilaterally decide to put their children up for adoption, and males have the choice to not become a father.


    Well if the man has no choice in her opting out, this should be balanced by his right to opt-out too.
    Men have a choice to not become fathers.




    It is NOT a lie, even though you keep making that ridiculous comment "he can abort if he has a child." You really need to drop that line, it's a silly statement and really unworthy of debate.

    Prior to conception (which only you and the other "blame game" people argue about) the ONLY choice he has is whether or not to have sex with the woman using a condom. Even there the final decision rests with the woman who controls what happens and can simply refuse sex unless he uses contraception. After conception (which is what everyone but you seems to be talking about), condom or not, she has unilateral power to make the choices for BOTH of them. He has NO CHOICE in that matter.
    The fact that you had to qualify your claim (see bolded section) proves that even you know that men have choices. Therefore, you repeated claims that men have no choices is a lie.

    What you really mean is that "men do not have the same choices" to which the answer is "So what? It's not the laws job to ensure that everyone gets to have the same choices in life"

    Do you really believe the law does or should ensure that everyone gets to make the same choices?
    Last edited by sangha; 09-23-13 at 04:12 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

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