View Poll Results: Should a Man have an Absolute Right to abort his baby?

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  • Yes, but only during the first 20 weeks, same as a woman.

    3 2.97%
  • Yes, but only during the initial period when a non-invasive technique works.

    0 0%
  • No, but he should have the right to be legally relieved of all responsibility.

    50 49.50%
  • NO! Only the woman has this right and he remains responsible.

    21 20.79%
  • I oppose all abortion, so neither have the right.

    22 21.78%
  • I Don't Know.

    5 4.95%
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Thread: Should a Man have an Absolute Right to Choose to Abort His Baby?

  1. #1371
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    Re: Should a Man have an Absolute Right to Choose to Abort His Baby?

    Quote Originally Posted by Excon View Post
    Yes, this proposal is that solution.


    Wrong!
    The legitimate solution is the proposal.
    It does not injure anyone.


    Enough said. Proposal wins by default.


    No. What is actually unfair is bringing a kid into this freak world to begin with.

    But this way, it is determined who is responsible for the child beforehand.
    Which also means that a woman choosing to bring a child into this world would be doing so knowing she would be responsible for supporting the child if the man didn't want to. Which equates to a more informed decision as whether or not to bring a child into this world. Likely resulting in less births. Less births where the state wouldn't have to seek out someone to be responsible because she couldn't.

    Which is actually in the interest of the State and the child.


    And what is the best interest of the child and the state, can change with the flick of a pen or the wisp of a decision.
    And having it established prior to birth as to whom is responsible, seems like it is in the best interest of both.


    Yes there is. Passing this proposal into law is one.


    You thinking something isn't equitable does not mean it isn't.
    As we can see, there are folks that believe it is.


    Making a decision before birth as to who is responsible does not compromise anybody's welfare. It actually ensures who is responsible for the child's welfare.
    This is the proposal? Abstinence or Sterilization?

    Ex...you're talk at the problem...not offering a viable legal or legislative solution...period. In other words...you haven't brought anything new to this thread.

    A genuine, workable solution would have to created around "prior to sex"...not after conception...which is obviously before birth.

    I stated in another post that the only solution that I see possible is that there is a sexual relationship contract that is legally binding, accepted by our judicial system in which prior to beginning of a sexual relationship...therein is the agreed conditions which define the consequence of an unintended conception. But even this solution doesn't guarantee noninjury to one of more parties, but does remove the battle over consequences from a legal standpoint. A court would have to apply the law according to the contract.

  2. #1372
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    Re: Should a Man have an Absolute Right to Choose to Abort His Baby?

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Adverse View Post
    Hi RM. Hows things today?

    Since you wish to see something along the lines of a "Model Statute" here is a link to a dissertation provided by Melanie G. McCulley. It' starts off like this:



    The rest (along with some good reading on the merits) can be found here: http://maleabortion.com/

    Perhaps that will help.
    CA...with all due respect...this article is a long winded way of framing what is obvious. There are some serious holes in the notion that there is a truly rational means of legislating a solution. The author assumes things about best interest which don't cut it.

    Your source...isn't a profound solution.

    All I see is another...Men are tired of being victims and we don't like the ongoing victimization so we insist the government legislate a law that says...SCREW YOU. I'M NOT PAYING...cuz it ain't fair.

    But I will have to say that the article did point out everything that I have based on laws which are constructed around "best interest". Nothing new.

    This issue won't be solve inside of Congress.

    Is the current laws slanted via an unilateral authority? Yes.

    But this article is simply discussing just another creation of a different unilateral authority. Now if I've read your source wrong. Please feel free to cut and paste anything that will make my perceptions or interpretation of things that I read...more clear.

    The hardcore reality is...the way humans conceive...reproduce doesn't start out with equal conditions. Now if men could also bear a child. If one or the other conceived...didn't want to the responsibility...the embryo could be transplanted into the other. But that's not the case.

    A pre-sex contract, which is legally recognized and binding according to statutes is the only way to come remotely close to an outcome that has legal recourse. But we both know that some will break the contract. In such case courts will be left to apply the law...according to statutory provisions regarding contractual law.

    Thanks, CA...

    One last thing. Congress can't predict the emotional well being of a child...or the relationship elements that affect a child.
    Last edited by Removable Mind; 09-21-13 at 12:49 PM.

  3. #1373
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    Re: Should a Man have an Absolute Right to Choose to Abort His Baby?

    Quote Originally Posted by SmokeAndMirrors View Post
    Depends.

    I've known more than one guy who got "oopsed." Condoms vandalized, lying about birth control, etc.

    Can I respect walking in that scenario? Yup, sure can. The woman in this situation is a manipulative piece of a crap. And if she's so determined to have a kid with an unwilling partner who did everything they could, she can go it on her own.

    To be completely fair, I've also known men who did the same thing. Disgusting.

    In other situations? I wouldn't say I'm in a place to judge. Again, it depends.

    Did he tell her he would? Then no, I don't respect him. He's a liar.

    Did he say up front, or before hand, that he wouldn't? Well... it's hard to fault him, honestly. I don't know if I respect him, but I don't disrespect him either. The woman has so many choices, but he has so few. There's really nothing he can do to prevent that birth from happening once the mistake has already occurred, while the woman could. It just doesn't feel right to fault him for exercising the only choice he has, if he is also being up-front about it at a point where she still has choices. Just can't fault him.

    Can I disrespect an honest man who simply doesn't want his entire life derailed forever for something he had no choice in? Can't say that I can, based on that alone.
    I am always curious about the "vandalized" condom stories. If the condom breaks when it is put on - don't penetrate. It is really that simple. If you are relying on condoms she bought? Why? You don't buy her birth control. why do you let her buy your condoms? I always laugh at the "she poked holes in my condom" stories. First of all, if you actually noticed it, you would not have put the damn thing on or let her put it on for you. It is almost like men who claim this story take condoms out of the trash an inspect them with a microsope.
    I have been in situations where we have had condom failure and since I was using birth control there was a bit of whining. Believe me, there was a push to carry on
    So pardon me if my experience with men and condoms .

    Frankly, sex outside of committed relationships can be dicey at best. So men and women need to accept the realities of their behavior. The reality is that men cannot control the physical body of a women (especially with medical issues!!!!!)Since a child needs to be supported if the baby is not to be adopted, then both the mother and father need to expect to support the baby to the best of their ability. That is in the child's best interest and certainly in the states and taxpayers best interest. If the mom is able to support the child well on her own and choses not to ask for further support....it will only become a legal issue if the woman cannot support the child. Damn straight as a taxpayer I wouldn't let the "but she let me off the hook" bull**** if the only other option was government aid!!!!!!Just the child going on his health insurance would be a huge help to the state (and taxpayer)-and it would certainly be a help to the child if he was not on Medicaid if a major health issue presented itself.

  4. #1374
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    Re: Should a Man have an Absolute Right to Choose to Abort His Baby?

    Quote Originally Posted by year2late View Post
    I am always curious about the "vandalized" condom stories. If the condom breaks when it is put on - don't penetrate. It is really that simple. If you are relying on condoms she bought? Why? You don't buy her birth control. why do you let her buy your condoms? I always laugh at the "she poked holes in my condom" stories. First of all, if you actually noticed it, you would not have put the damn thing on or let her put it on for you. It is almost like men who claim this story take condoms out of the trash an inspect them with a microsope.
    I have been in situations where we have had condom failure and since I was using birth control there was a bit of whining. Believe me, there was a push to carry on
    So pardon me if my experience with men and condoms .

    Frankly, sex outside of committed relationships can be dicey at best. So men and women need to accept the realities of their behavior. The reality is that men cannot control the physical body of a women (especially with medical issues!!!!!)Since a child needs to be supported if the baby is not to be adopted, then both the mother and father need to expect to support the baby to the best of their ability. That is in the child's best interest and certainly in the states and taxpayers best interest. If the mom is able to support the child well on her own and choses not to ask for further support....it will only become a legal issue if the woman cannot support the child. Damn straight as a taxpayer I wouldn't let the "but she let me off the hook" bull**** if the only other option was government aid!!!!!!Just the child going on his health insurance would be a huge help to the state (and taxpayer)-and it would certainly be a help to the child if he was not on Medicaid if a major health issue presented itself.
    They don't break them wide open. Any idiot can see that. They poke holes in them, or age them with heat, or take them and use them to "turkey baste." Yes, really.

    It may not be condoms she bought. It may be condoms he bought, and she just knows where he keeps them.

    And FYI... all of the people I know who got "oopsed" were in relationships.

    Your judgementality about other people's sex lives is not a good excuse to take people's rights away, or to treat a child as a punishment. Gee, great parenting ethic there.

  5. #1375
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    Re: Should a Man have an Absolute Right to Choose to Abort His Baby?

    Quote Originally Posted by Removable Mind View Post
    This is the proposal? Abstinence or Sterilization?
    Wtf?
    Giving the male a choice is the proposal.


    Quote Originally Posted by Removable Mind View Post
    Ex...you're talk at the problem...not offering a viable legal or legislative solution...period. In other words...you haven't brought anything new to this thread.
    Wrong, as this proposal is and can be viable and legal.
    So stop pretending like it can't.


    Quote Originally Posted by Removable Mind View Post
    A genuine, workable solution would have to created around "prior to sex"...not after conception...which is obviously before birth.
    No it doesn't, as we are talking about the time after conception when she gets to choose. A choice which may burden the male. Which is what is unfair, and the proposal eliminates that unfairness.


    Quote Originally Posted by Removable Mind View Post
    I stated in another post that the only solution that I see possible is that there is a sexual relationship contract that is legally binding, accepted by our judicial system in which prior to beginning of a sexual relationship...therein is the agreed conditions which define the consequence of an unintended conception. But even this solution doesn't guarantee noninjury to one of more parties, but does remove the battle over consequences from a legal standpoint. A court would have to apply the law according to the contract.
    Yes, we know you stated a ridiculous suggestion.
    Once this proposal is excepted there is no need for all the other bs.
    We know who is responsible for the child. Obviously the woman, and anybody else who accepted responsibility.


    The below already put you arguments in their place as nonsense.
    So why you persist at being wrong, I have no idea.


    And what is the best interest of the child and the state, can change with the flick of a pen or the wisp of a decision.
    And having it established prior to birth as to whom is responsible, seems like it is in the best interest of both.

    Which also means that a woman choosing to bring a child into this world would be doing so knowing she would be responsible for supporting the child if the man didn't want to. Which equates to a more informed decision as whether or not to bring a child into this world. Likely resulting in less births. Less births where the state wouldn't have to seek out someone to be responsible because she couldn't.

    Making a decision before birth as to who is responsible does not compromise anybody's welfare. It actually ensures who is responsible for the child's welfare.
    “The law is reason, free from passion.”
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  6. #1376
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    Re: Should a Man have an Absolute Right to Choose to Abort His Baby?

    Quote Originally Posted by Excon View Post
    Wtf?
    Giving the male a choice is the proposal.


    Wrong, as this proposal is and can be viable and legal.
    So stop pretending like it can't.


    No it doesn't, as we are talking about the time after conception when she gets to choose. A choice which may burden the male. Which is what is unfair, and the proposal eliminates that unfairness.


    Yes, we know you stated a ridiculous suggestion.
    Once this proposal is excepted there is no need for all the other bs.
    We know who is responsible for the child. Obviously the woman, and anybody else who accepted responsibility.


    The below already put you arguments in their place as nonsense.
    So why you persist at being wrong, I have no idea.


    And what is the best interest of the child and the state, can change with the flick of a pen or the wisp of a decision.
    And having it established prior to birth as to whom is responsible, seems like it is in the best interest of both.

    Which also means that a woman choosing to bring a child into this world would be doing so knowing she would be responsible for supporting the child if the man didn't want to. Which equates to a more informed decision as whether or not to bring a child into this world. Likely resulting in less births. Less births where the state wouldn't have to seek out someone to be responsible because she couldn't.

    Making a decision before birth as to who is responsible does not compromise anybody's welfare. It actually ensures who is responsible for the child's welfare.
    Ex...all circular.

    Until I see the actual legislative language used to enact a law that GIVE MEN CHOICE...back to square one.

    And the more you say that I'm "wrong" doesn't make it anymore true.

  7. #1377
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    Re: Should a Man have an Absolute Right to Choose to Abort His Baby?

    Quote Originally Posted by Removable Mind View Post
    Ex...all circular.

    Yes that is what those on your side of the coin have been doing.
    They know we are past the point of sex and actually after the point of conception, yet they keep wanting to go back to the initial point which is irrelevant.
    Very circular of them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Removable Mind View Post
    Until I see the actual legislative language used to enact a law that GIVE MEN CHOICE...back to square one.
    Oy vey!
    No responsibility attaches until acceptance.
    That is basically the proposal.
    So stop playing games like you do not know what it is.


    Quote Originally Posted by Removable Mind View Post
    And the more you say that I'm "wrong" doesn't make it anymore true.
    Exactly, because it can't be any more true than it already is.
    You are wrong.
    It is repeated as it needs to be.
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  8. #1378
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    Re: Should a Man have an Absolute Right to Choose to Abort His Baby?

    Quote Originally Posted by SmokeAndMirrors View Post
    They don't break them wide open. Any idiot can see that. They poke holes in them, or age them with heat, or take them and use them to "turkey baste." Yes, really.

    It may not be condoms she bought. It may be condoms he bought, and she just knows where he keeps them.

    And FYI... all of the people I know who got "oopsed" were in relationships.

    Your judgementality about other people's sex lives is not a good excuse to take people's rights away, or to treat a child as a punishment. Gee, great parenting ethic there.
    When the baby is born, I am concerned with his/her rights to be supported. Why is that so difficult to understand?

    I think it is disgusting and abhorrent that a woman would sabotage the man. I am not sure if their are legal remedies. Can the sabotages be proven? A many would have every right to be angry. How does he know that there was "turkey basting" or heating or pin pricks? Did the woman acknowledge it?

    But again, my primary concern is for the child and the support of the child.

  9. #1379
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    Re: Should a Man have an Absolute Right to Choose to Abort His Baby?

    Quote Originally Posted by Excon View Post

    Yes that is what those on your side of the coin have been doing.
    They know we are past the point of sex and actually after the point of conception, yet they keep wanting to go back to the initial point which is irrelevant.
    Very circular of them.

    Oy vey!
    No responsibility attaches until acceptance.
    That is basically the proposal.
    So stop playing games like you do not know what it is.



    Exactly, because it can't be any more true than it already is.
    You are wrong.
    It is repeated as it needs to be.
    Oh brother....

    All you want to see occur is to create a different "unilateral authority"...

    And you believe that government can recreate best interest which is, beyond reasonable doubt, truly the best interest of a kid...based off of a couple of people who like to have sex without consequences...until the consequences actually happen.

    Nothing...absolutely NOTHING you've posted that proves me wrong.

  10. #1380
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    Re: Should a Man have an Absolute Right to Choose to Abort His Baby?

    Quote Originally Posted by Removable Mind View Post
    Oh brother....

    All you want to see occur is to create a different "unilateral authority"...

    And you believe that government can recreate best interest which is, beyond reasonable doubt, truly the best interest of a kid...based off of a couple of people who like to have sex without consequences...until the consequences actually happen.

    Nothing...absolutely NOTHING you've posted that proves me wrong.
    As you already know, you are wrong.
    But I don't mind telling you again.
    Last edited by Excon; 09-21-13 at 01:54 PM.
    “The law is reason, free from passion.”
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