View Poll Results: Should a Man have an Absolute Right to abort his baby?

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  • Yes, but only during the first 20 weeks, same as a woman.

    3 2.97%
  • Yes, but only during the initial period when a non-invasive technique works.

    0 0%
  • No, but he should have the right to be legally relieved of all responsibility.

    50 49.50%
  • NO! Only the woman has this right and he remains responsible.

    21 20.79%
  • I oppose all abortion, so neither have the right.

    22 21.78%
  • I Don't Know.

    5 4.95%
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Thread: Should a Man have an Absolute Right to Choose to Abort His Baby?

  1. #1321
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    Re: Should a Man have an Absolute Right to Choose to Abort His Baby?

    Quote Originally Posted by minnie616 View Post
    When the father is raising the child the woman does send off the check.
    Both parents pay for the support of the child.
    This isn't just a post to you, minnie, but to a lot of people who seem unclear about what is being discussed here.

    As far as I am understanding it, we are discussing men relinquishing ALL parental rights, and not paying child support.

    That is different from simply being a non-custodial parent. A non-custodial parent still has legal rights to the child, and thus may pay child support if requested. They are still, oficially, a parent -- just not one the child is living with on a significant basis.

    We're discussing a man who basically gives up his child for "adoption" (presumably to the woman, or perhaps to someone else if she doesn't want it either). He has relinquished all of his parental rights.

    A woman who gives up all rights to a child does not pay child support.

    What we're arguing about here is, basically, the fact that men are generally not allowed to give up parental rights.

  2. #1322
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    Re: Should a Man have an Absolute Right to Choose to Abort His Baby?

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Adverse View Post
    Should a man have an absolute right to have his baby aborted?

    In the alternative, should he be granted relief from all legal responsibility if it is his clearly stated wish to abort but the woman decides not to?

    Let me preface my remarks with this disclaimer; I am Pro-Choice and I support a womanís absolute right to choose to have an abortion for several reasons, including the fact it is the woman who must endure the pregnancy to carry the child to term, and then follows the lifelong responsibility to raise and care for any child born.

    The dilemma occurs when the woman unilaterally decides to have the baby, even when the male does not wish to accept that long-term responsibility.

    In a recent news report, a young man was so desperate not to have a child that he tricked his girlfriend into taking a morning after pill. Now I do not support or condone this action, but it does bring up the thesis issue for meÖwhy does the male partner have no say in a decision to keep the baby?

    When a woman makes the unilateral decision to keep the baby this then compels lifelong legal and emotional obligations on the part of the unwilling father. This creates resentment and recriminations in both parties. By attempting to force the man to marry and/or support both her and the child this only serves to create a negative environment for all concerned, especially for any child to grow up in.

    Since we now have a simple method of aborting in the early stages of the first trimester, without needing an invasive surgery, why should the absolute choice to keep the baby reside with the mother? If it does, why canít the man be legally relieved of further responsibility to both parties?

    I have offered several voting options, please pick and then explain what do you think? I am especially interested in arguments for why the woman has the sole right to keep the child while making the man permanently responsible.
    Though I like the question and really do not know that a man should be absolved of responsibility, should the woman refuse abortion. I tend to think that a problematic concept. But should a woman be allowed to abort, where the man is willing to take responsibility? She did know, after all, that she could become pregnant and chanced it.

  3. #1323
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    Re: Should a Man have an Absolute Right to Choose to Abort His Baby?

    Quote Originally Posted by joG View Post
    Though I like the question and really do not know that a man should be absolved of responsibility, should the woman refuse abortion. I tend to think that a problematic concept. But should a woman be allowed to abort, where the man is willing to take responsibility? She did know, after all, that she could become pregnant and chanced it.
    There's one big issue here, that makes these situations different.

    Pregnancy is no small matter. It's very depleting, potentially dangerous and harmful, and ends in a great deal of pain.

    A man who wishes to relinquish his parental rights is not asking the woman to do anything more than she already has. She has already decided to have and raise a child.

    A man who wishes to take a child a woman does not want, and is currently pregnant with, is asking her to go through all of that at her own risk and detriment simply for his wishes.

    He doesn't have any right to demand that of her, in exactly the same way she doesn't have a right to demand he care for a child that she unilaterally decided to have.

    I don't buy the whole "they could have kept their legs shut" thing for either sex. People are allowed to have intimacy in their lives without being punished by force birthing or force servitude.

  4. #1324
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    Re: Should a Man have an Absolute Right to Choose to Abort His Baby?

    Quote Originally Posted by SmokeAndMirrors View Post
    There's one big issue here, that makes these situations different.

    Pregnancy is no small matter. It's very depleting, potentially dangerous and harmful, and ends in a great deal of pain.

    A man who wishes to relinquish his parental rights is not asking the woman to do anything more than she already has. She has already decided to have and raise a child.

    A man who wishes to take a child a woman does not want, and is currently pregnant with, is asking her to go through all of that at her own risk and detriment simply for his wishes.

    He doesn't have any right to demand that of her, in exactly the same way she doesn't have a right to demand he care for a child that she unilaterally decided to have.

    I don't buy the whole "they could have kept their legs shut" thing for either sex. People are allowed to have intimacy in their lives without being punished by force birthing or force servitude.
    No question. Pregnancy is no small matter. That is something to keep in mind, when deciding to spend the night. But we do find consensus on your statement, if you include financial responsibility: "He doesn't have any right to demand that of her, in exactly the same way she doesn't have a right to demand he care for a child that she unilaterally decided to have."

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    Re: Should a Man have an Absolute Right to Choose to Abort His Baby?

    I oppose all abortion but legally a man should have the same rights as the woman.

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    Re: Should a Man have an Absolute Right to Choose to Abort His Baby?

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Adverse View Post
    From the OP on throughout this thread I have consistently supported a woman’s right to choose; either to abort or to accept the full responsibility of having a baby for herself. It simply seems strange to hear arguments claiming that while BOTH are responsible for conception, only ONE gets to decide if both must commit to lifelong responsibility or not.

    If the woman controls access, prevention, and “opt-out” outcome why then must the male be bound by those choices but not relieved of the duty to take care of an unexpected and unwanted child if she chooses the “opt-in” outcome?

    A partial answer is that even if I want a child I must respect the woman’s choice to make me use contraception, and her use of contraception, and if she gets pregnant to abort it. That is because it is her body and she may choose not to have it affected by the growth of an unwanted child, nor be forced to assume the responsibilities inherent subsequent to childbirth. I cannot compel her to accept these things.

    But this does not answer the essential question; if I do NOT want a child and she still gets pregnant why should she be allowed to compel me to?

    It is disingenuous to claim it is not her, but “public policy” which actually compels me; because her decision determines whether or not I will be subject to the compulsion of such “public policy.” Currently women are assured that no matter what the man thinks; if she chooses to have an unwanted child then the male will be compelled to support it.

    It is also disingenuous to claim that current “public policy” is “set in stone” and cannot change. It is one thing to argue that a majority could not currently accept any public policy change which might increase the tax burden imposed by public welfare. It is another to state categorically that society would never accept any such public policy change.

    Arguments claiming that the male could keep his pants on, wear a “sock,” or recognize he is taking a risk are not determining because sex neither constitutes agreement that conception will occur nor that a baby must be born. Why? The woman’s rights are based upon her greater risks; therefore she has the absolute power to decide what happens, if anything, with her body. As a result, even though both share the possibility of conception only she can limit access by requiring levels of contraception; opt to abort; or even abandon the male to hide the pregnancy in order to give the child up for adoption. So only she currently has the power to opt-out.

    This is inequitable; even the nay-sayers in this thread acknowledge that.

    In response they use every fallacious argument in the book, from appeals to emotion (there is a child!), through appeals to consequences ("public policy"), to affirming the consequent (if male has sex then he agrees to have a baby; a baby occurs, he agreed to have a baby). None of this addresses the essential inequity of the female “opt-out,” they simply assert “too bad, so sad, deal with it.”

    I'm still waiting for a logically sound argument which addresses validly why a man should not have the same right to opt-out as the woman does.

    ^ Another Maoist sub silentio declaration that child rearing duties and expenses defaults to the state/government - and otherwise a declaration of total indifference of what becomes of the child.

    Since whether the child lives or dies is irrelevant to you, then I'll agree with you for the sake of argument the child is just an object the man and woman are arguing over.

    A man and a woman sign a loan to buy a car together. BUT then the woman leave and takes the car with her, and there is no clue where the car is at - yet the man is still liable for the loan.

    HOW THE HELL IS THAT FAIR?! OMG the INJUSTICE! Obviously the man should be able to stop making payments and have the government pay the loan. Why should the government pay the loan? Because it is unfair that he has to.

    That is essentially what you and many others are claiming. A man's child is absolutely nothing other than an object the woman and man feud over. If the man loses the feud, then the child becomes the governments/MY responsibility.

    Finally, apparently you see no difference between a ZEF and a 10 year old child. Thus, you conclude if the woman can abort the ZEF her parental duties during the first few months of pregnancy, then the man gets to abort his parental obligations for his child for 18 years after birth. And you call that "fairness."

    Explain how your view is fair to the child?

  7. #1327
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    Re: Should a Man have an Absolute Right to Choose to Abort His Baby?

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    Finally, apparently you see no difference between a ZEF and a 10 year old child. Thus, you conclude if the woman can abort the ZEF her parental duties during the first few months of pregnancy, then the man gets to abort his parental obligations for his child for 18 years after birth. And you call that "fairness."
    If a woman aborts during the first few months of pregnancy, she absolves herself of her parental obligations for 18 years, too. Nobody is talking about allowing the father of a ten year old child to change his mind and shirk his duties to his children-- only that he should have the same right to refuse to become a parent as women have.

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    Re: Should a Man have an Absolute Right to Choose to Abort His Baby?

    Quote Originally Posted by Korimyr the Rat View Post
    If a woman aborts during the first few months of pregnancy, she absolves herself of her parental obligations for 18 years, too. Nobody is talking about allowing the father of a ten year old child to change his mind and shirk his duties to his children-- only that he should have the same right to refuse to become a parent as women have.
    Your statement is based upon asserting there is exactly no difference between a ZEF and a born child.

    What other "unfairness to men" do you think we-the-people should have to pay for? What other chores of men that are not fair and the man doesn't want to do should we-the-people have to do for them?

  9. #1329
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    Re: Should a Man have an Absolute Right to Choose to Abort His Baby?

    Quote Originally Posted by SmokeAndMirrors View Post
    Yes, an option for the custodial parent to pursue if they wish. Not every single parent WANTS child support. Mine, for example. If they don't want it, then why make the other parent pay it?

    But what we are talking about here is completely relinquishing all parental rights. Just like when a woman puts up a child for adoption. Women have the right to choose not to be a parent to a biological child. Why don't men?

    The woman decides what to do with her pregnancy. She does not get to decide what to do with a man's life. That has nothing to do with "fairness." That is a basic principal of personal liberty.

    And by the way, it's the same principal that makes you pro-choice. It's baffling that you don't think it applies to men.
    Pro-choice is about a women's right to control her own body. It is not about what happens when the baby is born.

    I did not take child support. I could have forced the issue, but frankly I was always the breadwinner, I saw no reason to make him destitute to pay for our child.

    But have him totally relinquish future need to support. Nope.

    There was a time when I needed several ankle surgeries to get back to work. I was off about a year. I had to cobra my healthcare .Had he not been a "legal" parent, I would not have had the ability to switch our son over to his health care. As it was, a unique opportunity presented itself, and I was able to keep him covered with me - but not at cobra prices.

    This is not what is in the man's or woman's best interest....it is what is in the child's best interest.

    And as someone stated earlier, if mom goes searching for welfare and ongoing support? Why should the state pay for a child when there is another parent to possibly help with the bills. Hell, the ability alone to place the child on a good health insurance plan (read not Medicaid) is a good thing. As a taxpayer I would say...you better be going after both parents to support this child before the state gives out my tax dollars.

    But yeah, I elected not to receive support for my child, as I was always the breadwinner. But give away total future rights for my child - are you nuts?

    What about social security benefits? Why the hell would I give up his rights to his social security benefit?

  10. #1330
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    Re: Should a Man have an Absolute Right to Choose to Abort His Baby?

    Quote Originally Posted by Korimyr the Rat View Post
    If a woman aborts during the first few months of pregnancy, she absolves herself of her parental obligations for 18 years, too. Nobody is talking about allowing the father of a ten year old child to change his mind and shirk his duties to his children-- only that he should have the same right to refuse to become a parent as women have.
    Ok, I will give you fair. When the man gets pregnant. He can "absolve" himself of financial responsibility in this manner as well. Fair is fair. You want equal - you got it.



    It is predictable that you narrowed abortion to just be about absolving the woman of financial responsibility.

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