View Poll Results: Should a Man have an Absolute Right to abort his baby?

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  • Yes, but only during the first 20 weeks, same as a woman.

    3 2.97%
  • Yes, but only during the initial period when a non-invasive technique works.

    0 0%
  • No, but he should have the right to be legally relieved of all responsibility.

    50 49.50%
  • NO! Only the woman has this right and he remains responsible.

    21 20.79%
  • I oppose all abortion, so neither have the right.

    22 21.78%
  • I Don't Know.

    5 4.95%
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Thread: Should a Man have an Absolute Right to Choose to Abort His Baby?

  1. #1301
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    Re: Should a Man have an Absolute Right to Choose to Abort His Baby?

    Quote Originally Posted by Korimyr the Rat View Post
    Yes. Not so much that she can declare that he has no rights, but that he has no rights unless she declares otherwise-- it's nothing against men, it's the fact that genetics are absolutely morally irrelevant to my concept of paternity. Mothers and fathers are equal partners in parenthood, but a man isn't a father until the mother has given the child to him, and he has chosen to give it his name.
    What you said here is fiction. Regardless of what the mother does, a father can insist on his parental rights and if the mother tries to interfere with his exercising those rights, he can have the court issue an order protecting his rights.
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

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    Re: Should a Man have an Absolute Right to Choose to Abort His Baby?

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    What you said here is fiction. Regardless of what the mother does, a father can insist on his parental rights and if the mother tries to interfere with his exercising those rights, he can have the court issue an order protecting his rights.
    If he knows he's the biological father of a child, and can prove it in court. Couple of big ifs, there, and also almost entirely within the woman's control.

  3. #1303
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    Re: Should a Man have an Absolute Right to Choose to Abort His Baby?

    Quote Originally Posted by Korimyr the Rat View Post
    Yes. Not so much that she can declare that he has no rights, but that he has no rights unless she declares otherwise-- it's nothing against men, it's the fact that genetics are absolutely morally irrelevant to my concept of paternity. Mothers and fathers are equal partners in parenthood, but a man isn't a father until the mother has given the child to him, and he has chosen to give it his name.
    That's not true. Depending the state, because statutes vary. A DNA test is very possible during prenatal stages, done all the time, and it can be court ordered to done to determine paternity. Then a court can order the "soon" to be daddy to ALSO PAY a portion of prenatal care, delivery, all the way to 18 years of age, and in some cases older.

    You are hung up on birth certificate as though they on the only legal instrument which identifies a baby belonging to a specific man and woman. And that a name is require of all parties...and filed with the BVS in order to be recognized as a person. NOT TRUE.

    If you purposely murder a 1 minute newborn...which the second it's little butt hits air...it immediately has constitutional rights. And you will go to jail for murdering A PERSON. It's no longer a fetus...but a real live person.

    It's personhood is witnessed by doctors, nurses...and even a father. Yes...it is a legal being. It's identifiable by unique DNA and fingerprints and footprints. A hospital will attach a special identification bracelet and always do footprints and some will also do fingerprints will be recorded very shortly after birth.

    They have to by law.

    Oh...some states don't require names for up to 30 days after birth.

  4. #1304
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    Re: Should a Man have an Absolute Right to Choose to Abort His Baby?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    The question doesn't have anything to do with custody, nor is it a question of "privilege."

    It sounds to me like I was right; you accept the double standard, and would indeed say "if you didn't want to be on the hook for the kid, you shouldn't have had sex."
    No, you're very wrong. But you're relying on oversimplifications to reach a predetermined conclusion,so you were pretty much guaranteed to be wrong.
    Liberté. Égalité. Fraternité.

  5. #1305
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    Re: Should a Man have an Absolute Right to Choose to Abort His Baby?

    From the OP on throughout this thread I have consistently supported a woman’s right to choose; either to abort or to accept the full responsibility of having a baby for herself. It simply seems strange to hear arguments claiming that while BOTH are responsible for conception, only ONE gets to decide if both must commit to lifelong responsibility or not.

    If the woman controls access, prevention, and “opt-out” outcome why then must the male be bound by those choices but not relieved of the duty to take care of an unexpected and unwanted child if she chooses the “opt-in” outcome?

    A partial answer is that even if I want a child I must respect the woman’s choice to make me use contraception, and her use of contraception, and if she gets pregnant to abort it. That is because it is her body and she may choose not to have it affected by the growth of an unwanted child, nor be forced to assume the responsibilities inherent subsequent to childbirth. I cannot compel her to accept these things.

    But this does not answer the essential question; if I do NOT want a child and she still gets pregnant why should she be allowed to compel me to?

    It is disingenuous to claim it is not her, but “public policy” which actually compels me; because her decision determines whether or not I will be subject to the compulsion of such “public policy.” Currently women are assured that no matter what the man thinks; if she chooses to have an unwanted child then the male will be compelled to support it.

    It is also disingenuous to claim that current “public policy” is “set in stone” and cannot change. It is one thing to argue that a majority could not currently accept any public policy change which might increase the tax burden imposed by public welfare. It is another to state categorically that society would never accept any such public policy change.

    Arguments claiming that the male could keep his pants on, wear a “sock,” or recognize he is taking a risk are not determining because sex neither constitutes agreement that conception will occur nor that a baby must be born. Why? The woman’s rights are based upon her greater risks; therefore she has the absolute power to decide what happens, if anything, with her body. As a result, even though both share the possibility of conception only she can limit access by requiring levels of contraception; opt to abort; or even abandon the male to hide the pregnancy in order to give the child up for adoption. So only she currently has the power to opt-out.

    This is inequitable; even the nay-sayers in this thread acknowledge that.

    In response they use every fallacious argument in the book, from appeals to emotion (there is a child!), through appeals to consequences ("public policy"), to affirming the consequent (if male has sex then he agrees to have a baby; a baby occurs, he agreed to have a baby). None of this addresses the essential inequity of the female “opt-out,” they simply assert “too bad, so sad, deal with it.”

    I'm still waiting for a logically sound argument which addresses validly why a man should not have the same right to opt-out as the woman does.
    Last edited by Captain Adverse; 09-20-13 at 02:53 AM.
    If I stop responding it doesn't mean I've conceded the point or agree with you. It only means I've made my point and I don't mind you having the last word. Please wait a few minutes before "quoting" me. I often correct errors for a minute or two after I post before the final product is ready.

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    Re: Should a Man have an Absolute Right to Choose to Abort His Baby?

    Quote Originally Posted by Korimyr the Rat View Post
    If he knows he's the biological father of a child, and can prove it in court. Couple of big ifs, there, and also almost entirely within the woman's control.
    If he doesn't know, then he won't be paying child support.
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

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    Re: Should a Man have an Absolute Right to Choose to Abort His Baby?

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    If he doesn't know, then he won't be paying child support.
    That's not the point and you know it. The point is that his "parental rights" only exist if the mother informs him of the child. Every part of this process is under the woman's control.

  8. #1308
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    Re: Should a Man have an Absolute Right to Choose to Abort His Baby?

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Adverse View Post
    From the OP on throughout this thread I have consistently supported a woman’s right to choose; either to abort or to accept the full responsibility of having a baby for herself. It simply seems strange to hear arguments claiming that while BOTH are responsible for conception, only ONE gets to decide if both must commit to lifelong responsibility or not.

    If the woman controls access, prevention, and “opt-out” outcome why then must the male be bound by those choices but not relieved of the duty to take care of an unexpected and unwanted child if she chooses the “opt-in” outcome?

    A partial answer is that even if I want a child I must respect the woman’s choice to make me use contraception, and her use of contraception, and if she gets pregnant to abort it. That is because it is her body and she may choose not to have it affected by the growth of an unwanted child, nor be forced to assume the responsibilities inherent subsequent to childbirth. I cannot compel her to accept these things.

    But this does not answer the essential question; if I do NOT want a child and she still gets pregnant why should she be allowed to compel me to?

    It is disingenuous to claim it is not her, but “public policy” which actually compels me; because her decision determines whether or not I will be subject to the compulsion of such “public policy.” Currently women are assured that no matter what the man thinks; if she chooses to have an unwanted child then the male will be compelled to support it.

    It is also disingenuous to claim that current “public policy” is “set in stone” and cannot change. It is one thing to argue that a majority could not currently accept any public policy change which might increase the tax burden imposed by public welfare. It is another to state categorically that society would never accept any such public policy change.

    Arguments claiming that the male could keep his pants on, wear a “sock,” or recognize he is taking a risk are not determining because sex neither constitutes agreement that conception will occur nor that a baby must be born. Why? The woman’s rights are based upon her greater risks; therefore she has the absolute power to decide what happens, if anything, with her body. As a result, even though both share the possibility of conception only she can limit access by requiring levels of contraception; opt to abort; or even abandon the male to hide the pregnancy in order to give the child up for adoption. So only she currently has the power to opt-out.

    This is inequitable; even the nay-sayers in this thread acknowledge that.

    In response they use every fallacious argument in the book, from appeals to emotion (there is a child!), through appeals to consequences ("public policy"), to affirming the consequent (if male has sex then he agrees to have a baby; a baby occurs, he agreed to have a baby). None of this addresses the essential inequity of the female “opt-out,” they simply assert “too bad, so sad, deal with it.”

    I'm still waiting for a logically sound argument which addresses validly why a man should not have the same right to opt-out as the woman does.
    There is no opt-out option for taking responsibility for a child. Both mother and father are required by law to care for their children

    Your argument relies on the fiction that there is a way for a mother to opt out of her responsibilities to care for her child.
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

  9. #1309
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    Re: Should a Man have an Absolute Right to Choose to Abort His Baby?

    Quote Originally Posted by Korimyr the Rat View Post
    That's not the point and you know it. The point is that his "parental rights" only exist if the mother informs him of the child. Every part of this process is under the woman's control.
    Wrong again

    It's not hard to tell that a woman is pregnant. All he has to do is look at her. He doesn't have to rely on the mother to tell him

    Once again, you are relying on fiction.
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

  10. #1310
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    Re: Should a Man have an Absolute Right to Choose to Abort His Baby?

    Quote Originally Posted by year2late View Post
    Child support an option? So you are ok with a child not being financially supported? (at least as well as the child should be).

    I just have to love these "its not fair" responses. Wear a damned condom no matter what BC she is using or get a vasectomy.

    Seriously, if you want "its not fair" try pregnancy. At least women usually have the sense to know that there isn't fair or unfair....
    Yes, an option for the custodial parent to pursue if they wish. Not every single parent WANTS child support. Mine, for example. If they don't want it, then why make the other parent pay it?

    But what we are talking about here is completely relinquishing all parental rights. Just like when a woman puts up a child for adoption. Women have the right to choose not to be a parent to a biological child. Why don't men?

    The woman decides what to do with her pregnancy. She does not get to decide what to do with a man's life. That has nothing to do with "fairness." That is a basic principal of personal liberty.

    And by the way, it's the same principal that makes you pro-choice. It's baffling that you don't think it applies to men.
    Last edited by SmokeAndMirrors; 09-20-13 at 03:16 AM.

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