View Poll Results: Should a Man have an Absolute Right to abort his baby?

Voters
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  • Yes, but only during the first 20 weeks, same as a woman.

    3 2.97%
  • Yes, but only during the initial period when a non-invasive technique works.

    0 0%
  • No, but he should have the right to be legally relieved of all responsibility.

    50 49.50%
  • NO! Only the woman has this right and he remains responsible.

    21 20.79%
  • I oppose all abortion, so neither have the right.

    22 21.78%
  • I Don't Know.

    5 4.95%
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Thread: Should a Man have an Absolute Right to Choose to Abort His Baby?

  1. #1181
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    Re: Should a Man have an Absolute Right to Choose to Abort His Baby?

    Quote Originally Posted by Excon View Post
    Doesn't appear that way.

    It is only coercion to the man.
    It is not coercion to remove a choice she should not have.
    No one is saying she can't decide to have a child, no one is saying she has to either.

    It leads to a woman making a truly informed choice.
    Not one that is dependent on an assumption of support that may not come to fruition.

    Firstly -your comment -it's not coercion to remove a choice she shouldn't have...is the very same as saying ,"Lady, if you have sex and it results in an unintended conception...you made an uninformed choice. All conceptions are the automatic responsibility of a woman. Why? Because a man is coerced to pay for your uninformed choice...and that's not fair." BOO HOO...and even nonsense.

    Obviously you have decided to make this into a different argument than the one you expressed to Jerry...which prompted me to reply to your post to Jerry.

    "No...sex is not consent to have a child." This was "your" reply to Jerry. I agreed with you on that point. Now you say...apparently I'm not onboard? Really?

    Even if there was some strange, but unenforceable, related law created out of magical thinking... it could only state that "sex is consent to conception". But such a law would only have limited effect even it was included with a law that prohibits abortion. And we both know that not even these laws would prevent abortions. Similar laws existed prior to Roe v. Wade and didn't stop abortions. Laws that prohibit abortion only prohibit "legal abortions".

    So now you take my comments out of another argument with Captain Adverse about "coercion"... and create it as though it was my part of my response as "being on board with you". Nice, but no dice.

    The issue at hand isn't a binary one. There are many more players involved in reproductive issues that just two people. Variable circumstances and outcomes will dictate on how many players will be drawn into a conception between two people.

    Since the "current laws, which are created by "government" makes it possible for a woman to have "conditional" unilateral control over the fate of a conception...therefore "a woman" isn't coercing a man...if her choice is to carry a conception to full term.

    Lawmakers create laws which force him TO MAKE CHOICES (plural). Therein lies the coercion, which a man might be confronted with.

    Even a woman's unilateral control over the fate of a conception has conditions created by laws, which can force, or if you prefer, coerce her into making choices if a woman brings a conception to full term.

    Laws designed to create restrictions of behaviors of choice are coercive. Laws designed to prohibit specific behaviors are indeed coercive. They are coercive because laws attach legal consequences.

    An Opt-Out law would remove a man's need to make an informed choice. It would exempt a man from the legal consequences - which affects the welfare of a child...which is powerless to provide for itself and has no legal voice to provoke actions to protect its very existence.

    If a conception brought to full term - a child will automatically create coercive conditions for both a woman and a man. Laws that are designed to ensure the welfare of a child is based on: A child cannot provide for its own hierarchy of needs, which include, but it not limited to food, shelter, clothing, health care, etc.

    Even if both the man and woman who co-create a child... are resistant to coercive laws which will require them to furnish a child's hierarchy of needs, their resistance to comply will not remove them from financial obligations to the state. The state will become the legal conservator of a child. The state will legally pursue reimbursement (in part or whole) from both or either parent...the costs incurred by the state to maintain a child.

    There is no way to create an "Opt-out law" that would be "equitable". Legislative bodies will never create any laws that opt-out a man from legal and financial responsibilities.

    There are, however, laws, which say that a court can determine if a parent's rights can be terminated. If that event happens, then the person whose rights are terminate will no longer have legal or financial obligations. That's as close to "opt-out" we'll ever see.

  2. #1182
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    Re: Should a Man have an Absolute Right to Choose to Abort His Baby?

    Quote Originally Posted by year2late View Post
    The mother supports the child and the father supports the child. How in the hell is that not equal?
    The mother supports the child that she chose to have. The father supports the child that someone else chose for him to have.

  3. #1183
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    Re: Should a Man have an Absolute Right to Choose to Abort His Baby?

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    Because men can't choose to have a vasectomy or no sex.

    Those are beyond his control
    Are you guys trying to be a parody of ridulous pro-life arguments or what? We have the keep your pants on argument, the no sex argument, and the get fixed argument made over and over again throughout this thread. It's pretty hilarious that everyone making those arguments are pro-choice.

  4. #1184
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    Re: Should a Man have an Absolute Right to Choose to Abort His Baby?

    Quote Originally Posted by Korimyr the Rat View Post
    The supports the child that she chose to have. The father supports the child that someone else chose for him to have.
    There is no available equality in the situation. The "its not fair" tantrums just lack the acknowledgement of that reality.

    Man has sex with a woman he has no intention on having children with. He does so without a vasectomy and probably without a condom.

    Surprise. Woman gets pregnant.

    Woman's body. She choses to continue the pregnancy. Man CANNOT chose for her because he does not have to suffer the inherent risks of pregnancy.

    Baby born. Baby needs care. Now it is about the baby's needs.

    Both parents have to step up to the plate and support the child.

    Now if BOTH parents want the baby adopted out cool. But the man cannot force the woman to adopt out the baby and the woman cannot force the man to adopt out the baby.

    So, what is the lesson? There is no equal in a situation that inherently cannot be equal.

    There are choices for the man.

    Only have sex with women that are post menopausal. The can be kinda hot and flashy.

    Only have sex with women that you are ok with if pregnancy occurs.

    Have a reversible vasectomy - it is cheaper than child support.

    Learn how to use a condom properly.

    USe the condom even if the woman is using birth control.

    Oh, this one seems to help -stop being a slut and keep your pants on and zipped.

  5. #1185
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    Re: Should a Man have an Absolute Right to Choose to Abort His Baby?

    Quote Originally Posted by year2late View Post
    Oh, this one seems to help -stop being a slut and keep your pants on and zipped.
    Where have I heard this before?

  6. #1186
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    Re: Should a Man have an Absolute Right to Choose to Abort His Baby?

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    Are you guys trying to be a parody of ridulous pro-life arguments or what? We have the keep your pants on argument, the no sex argument, and the get fixed argument made over and over again throughout this thread. It's pretty hilarious that everyone making those arguments are pro-choice.
    About as funny as the pro-life men making arguments for not caring for the children they have fathered.

    But yes, parody implied. Keep your pants on you slut.

  7. #1187
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    Re: Should a Man have an Absolute Right to Choose to Abort His Baby?

    Quote Originally Posted by Korimyr the Rat View Post
    The mother supports the child that she chose to have. The father supports the child that someone else chose for him to have.
    By the way, unless he impregnated her while she raped him....he was an active participant in the activity.

  8. #1188
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    Re: Should a Man have an Absolute Right to Choose to Abort His Baby?

    Quote Originally Posted by year2late View Post
    By the way, unless he impregnated her while she raped him....he was an active participant in the activity.
    Every single argument you make has been tried and found wanting when applied to women when arguing why they shouldn't be allowed to abort. They have been rightfully dismissed as irrational and misogynistic. Repeating these arguments now against men isn't funny, and all the intended irony is lost when you realize that many of the men arguing against you-- arguing for equal rights-- are from men who support women's reproductive rights, who support their right to choose when to have children and their right to control the functions of their own body.

  9. #1189
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    Re: Should a Man have an Absolute Right to Choose to Abort His Baby?

    Quote Originally Posted by Korimyr the Rat View Post
    The mother supports the child that she chose to have. The father supports the child that someone else chose for him to have.
    Exactly and it will remain that way.

    See my previous post to Excon.

    What people don't understand it that it's NOT IN THE BEST INTEREST OF THE STATE nor a child...to legislatively grant an Opt-Out law. The laws allowing a woman to have conditional unilateral right to determine the fate of a fetus won't be undermined...by allowing one of the co-creators off the hook because of all of the reasons I stated in my post. It's not about just inequities between a man and a woman who co-create an unintended conception. The state is involved...or could be. And taxpayers are involved...or could be.

    Vik...just read my post. It's too long to repeat. It's around 1180ish or so.


    Suck it up guys...it is what it is.

  10. #1190
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    Re: Should a Man have an Absolute Right to Choose to Abort His Baby?

    Quote Originally Posted by Removable Mind View Post
    Suck it up guys...it is what it is.
    No. The reason that I argue about politics in the first place is because I believe in right and wrong, and I believe in moving human society closer to what is right and further away from what is wrong. Sexism is wrong. Violating the natural prerogatives of adult men and women to choose when and how to raise their families is wrong. Creating a moral hazard that leads to a skyrocketing rate of out-of-wedlock births is wrong. I am going to continue arguing about this issue because it is the right thing to do.

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