View Poll Results: Should a Man have an Absolute Right to abort his baby?

Voters
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  • Yes, but only during the first 20 weeks, same as a woman.

    3 2.97%
  • Yes, but only during the initial period when a non-invasive technique works.

    0 0%
  • No, but he should have the right to be legally relieved of all responsibility.

    50 49.50%
  • NO! Only the woman has this right and he remains responsible.

    21 20.79%
  • I oppose all abortion, so neither have the right.

    22 21.78%
  • I Don't Know.

    5 4.95%
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Thread: Should a Man have an Absolute Right to Choose to Abort His Baby?

  1. #1161
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    Re: Should a Man have an Absolute Right to Choose to Abort His Baby?

    Quote Originally Posted by minnie616 View Post
    There are no inconvenient reasons allowed after viability unless you think major psychological damage which falls under irrepable damage to a major bodilily function in Kansas law is an inconvenience reason I myself don't ...to me the brain ( mind ) is a major bodiliy function.

    Woman's age .. A 10 year old body is at risk during a pregnancy , same with a 50 some year old in some cases also falls under irreparable damage in Kansas law.

    And there were only 132 cases major irreparable damage to a major bodily function which also included things like kidney, liver, and other organ failure in 2008 in Kansas.
    ....
    Kansas District Attorney Kline tried to prosecute Dr. Tiller because Dr. Tiller aborted viable fetuses in extreme cases including a viable fetus of a 10 year girl.

    Dr. Tiller was acquitted of the charges.

    George Tiller, Kansas Doctor, Acquitted In Late-Term Abortion Case

    It did not matter to Kline that the girls life was at risk...It only mattered that the fetus was viable.
    It was one of the extreme cases that is supposed to be allowed under Doe v Bolton.


    From the following article:
    <SNIP>
    At the time, Kansas law required a second opinion from a licensed physician before a woman could obtain a late-term abortion in order to prove that she would suffer "substantial and irreversible" harm to a major bodily function if she continued with her pregnancy. Mental health was considered to be "a major bodily function."
    <SNIP>

    Neuhaus freely admits that her documentation was indeed sparse on detail. She notes that the Kansas district attorney began investigating abortion clinics, including Tiller's, in 2003. (Until his murder in 2009, Tiller was one of the few doctors who would perform abortions on fetuses older than 25 weeks.)

    The records -- which contained personal details about the young women Neuhaus evaluated -- were obtained by Kansas District Attorney Phil Kline in 2007.
    Neuhaus knows how Kline got them: His lead investigator, she says, tricked her into handing them over by falsely promising her that he'd give them right back.

    The records contain few identifying details about the females, but in one case, Neuhaus describes a 10-year-old girl who was raped by her uncle as “tiny” and physically incapable of being able to have a baby.
    <SNIP>

    Ann Kristin Neuhaus, Doctor And Tiller Colleague, Is The Latest Casualty In Kansas Abortion War
    Last edited by minnie616; 09-18-13 at 08:11 AM.
    When it comes to matters of reproduce health, Politicians and the religious dogma of another faith should never interfere with religious liberty of an individual or her faith.

  2. #1162
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    Re: Should a Man have an Absolute Right to Choose to Abort His Baby?

    Quote Originally Posted by Viv View Post
    The male however, could take responsibility and not create the pregnancy in the first place (avoiding the entire question).
    Couldn't the woman do that as well? I know it's very simple for a man to control that, but isn't both that are responsible? If both parents must support this child and both are involved in it's conception, both should be involved in the decision making.

    As wrong as this may sound it is the absolute truth, women are the gate keepers. I can't imagine that, and it isn't fair but it is reality. Men never will get the say so in whether or not their child is allowed to be born, they will never get to know the feeling of having the child grow inside of them. That isn't fair, but it is reality.

    I think that the option to terminate a pregnancy should be shared between the two parents. but then again the child is inside of the womens body. It's difficult if you think about it after she is pregnant. But before it's really a mutual issue.

  3. #1163
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    Re: Should a Man have an Absolute Right to Choose to Abort His Baby?

    Quote Originally Posted by X Factor View Post
    I'm pro life. Where did you get any of that from anything I posted?
    I think Shiek is just making things up to iritate you.

  4. #1164
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    Re: Should a Man have an Absolute Right to Choose to Abort His Baby?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    Consenting to sex is consenting to have a child, and SCOTUS doesn't need to say it for it to be true, so asking for SCOTUS quotes is just stupid.
    What is stupid is you continually saying something that isn't true.
    And when asked to provide proof of your assertion you fail to do so.


    If it were true you could show it.
    You fail because you can't, because it isn't true.

    If you want to believe that for yourself go straight on ahead.
    Doesn't change the fact that it isn't true.


    If it were a true statement it would be so for all parties involved, but it just isn't.

    Consent to have sex is not consent to have a child.

    So, when two men have sex, is that consent to a child? Of course not.
    When two women have sex, is that consent to a child? Of course not.

    But to you, when a man and a woman have sex, the man is the only one consenting to have children by it. That is an absurd position.
    She later consents or doesn't, when she finds out she is pregnant. Not at the time of sex.
    You do understand the "or doesn't" part, right?


    Consent to have sex is not consent to have a child. Period.
    “The law is reason, free from passion.”
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  5. #1165
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    Re: Should a Man have an Absolute Right to Choose to Abort His Baby?

    Quote Originally Posted by Removable Mind View Post
    ...but I am definitely onboard with you in this matter.
    Doesn't appear that way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Removable Mind View Post
    It's coercion...if women are forced to engage in other choice than they might not have...
    It is only coercion to the man.
    It is not coercion to remove a choice she should not have.
    No one is saying she can't decide to have a child, no one is saying she has to either.

    It leads to a woman making a truly informed choice.
    Not one that is dependent on an assumption of support that may not come to fruition.





    Quote Originally Posted by Viv View Post
    That is invasive, an infringement of rights.
    No it is not.


    Quote Originally Posted by Viv View Post
    How is giving men the right to dictate this,
    Dictate?
    He would be given a choice whether or not to support the child, a decision that should be his and his alone.
    The woman should not make that decision for him.


    Quote Originally Posted by Viv View Post
    You couldn't realistically enforce a law like that without huge difficulty.
    What is being proposed is easily enforceable.
    Please show us the "Consent to Support" form you filed.
    Not filed? No support required.
    “The law is reason, free from passion.”
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  6. #1166
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    Re: Should a Man have an Absolute Right to Choose to Abort His Baby?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sheik Yerbuti View Post
    Of course women pay child support. Where on Earth do you come up with this stuff???
    No, the woman in this instance has chosen to raise a child. A choice the man was never afforded.

    I don't see anybody here trying to get out of financial support for just the period the woman is pregnant and not the 18 years which follow. You are completely lost. But since you believe the majority on your side feel that way, it should be very easy for you to quote some, as I did, who clearly say that.....
    On the contrary, I have yet to see anyone argue in favor of a post-birth abrogation of responsibility assuming he knew of the child.

  7. #1167
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    Re: Should a Man have an Absolute Right to Choose to Abort His Baby?

    Quote Originally Posted by minnie616 View Post
    There are no inconvenient reasons allowed after viability unless you think major psychological damage which falls under irrepable damage to a major bodilily function in Kansas law is an inconvenience reason I myself don't ...to me the brain ( mind ) is a major bodiliy function.

    Woman's age .. A 10 year old body is at risk during a pregnancy , same with a 50 some year old in some cases also falls under irreparable damage in Kansas law.

    And there were only 132 cases major irreparable damage to a major bodily function which also included things like kidney, liver, and other organ failure in 2008 in Kansas.

    Risk to life/ major bodilily function and not being viable are the reasons allowed after limit of viability in Kansas.

    The reason non viability - still birth and the fetus being so malformed it will only live a few hours or minutes are extreme cases are because if the fetus dies in the womb and is not removed quickly it can turn septic and cause a life threatening infection in the woman.

    Therefore the viability reason is really a risk of the woman's life reason but it is recorded as non viable in the Kansas records.
    "All Factors" to include "emotional". If the woman emotionally doesn't want a kid, that justifies its' killing. Sure you can push the "age" bit to its extremes and ask what about 10 year olds; which obviates the fact that it equally applies to 28 year olds who think that their family would be negatively effected ("familial", you will recall) by the addition of another child not at all.

    Doe v Bolton effectively gets rid of any restrictions by making the "harm" hurdle so broadly defined as to include anything including regular childbirth. I realize that's a problem for you because you've latched on to this artificial barrier of "viability under current technology" as some kind of magical border, but there it is nonetheless.

    Heck, up until a few years ago it was still legal to kill the child after birth.
    Last edited by cpwill; 09-18-13 at 09:33 AM.

  8. #1168
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    Re: Should a Man have an Absolute Right to Choose to Abort His Baby?

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    She is specifically paying to support the child so "Yes, she's paying child support"
    Incorrect - she is raising a child, which was her choice. If she chooses to put the child up for adoption (end her responsibilities to it) she won't owe a dime in Child Support.

    If the father wasn't such a dead beat, neither would he
    if the father was afforded equal treatment under the law, your argument would have more merit.

  9. #1169
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    Re: Should a Man have an Absolute Right to Choose to Abort His Baby?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    "All Factors" to include "emotional". If the woman emotionally doesn't want a kid, that justifies its' killing. Sure you can push the "age" bit to its extremes and ask what about 10 year olds;...

    Doe v Bolton effectively gets rid of any restrictions by making the "harm" hurdle so broadly defined as to include anything including regular childbirth. I realize that's a problem for you because you've latched on to this artificial barrier of "viability under current technology" as some kind of magical border, but there it is nonetheless...
    .
    No it does not because get rid restrictions as seen in the Kansas cases. It does not allow abortions except in extreme emotional/pscological cases. It does allow doctors with some state restriction such as an independent 2ed doctor to make allowances in extreme cases where bodily harm including psychological harm will occur if the pregnancy continued.

    Less than .1 percent of all legal abortions in the USA after the limit of viability which is currently at 24 weeks gestation and has remained unchanged for 12 years.
    When it comes to matters of reproduce health, Politicians and the religious dogma of another faith should never interfere with religious liberty of an individual or her faith.

  10. #1170
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    Re: Should a Man have an Absolute Right to Choose to Abort His Baby?

    Quote Originally Posted by minnie616 View Post
    No it does not because get rid restrictions as seen in the Kansas cases. It does not allow abortions except in extreme emotional/pscological cases. It does allow doctors with some state restriction such as an independent 2ed doctor to make allowances in extreme cases where bodily harm including psychological harm will occur if the pregnancy continued.
    As seen in the Kansas case? The Kansas case you cited demonstrates my point, which is that under Doe v Bolton "health" is defined to include "emotional, familial, mental, etc. so on and so forth"., which is to say, to lower the bar to the point of nonexistance. Citing a case where just such a standard was applied doesn't exactly disprove the standard

    Less than .1 percent of all legal abortions in the USA after the limit of viability which is currently at 24 weeks gestation and has remained unchanged for 12 years.
    Oh goody Even if I took your numbers at face value, the murder of millions of children doesn't exactly excuse itself.

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