View Poll Results: Should a Man have an Absolute Right to abort his baby?

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  • Yes, but only during the first 20 weeks, same as a woman.

    3 2.97%
  • Yes, but only during the initial period when a non-invasive technique works.

    0 0%
  • No, but he should have the right to be legally relieved of all responsibility.

    50 49.50%
  • NO! Only the woman has this right and he remains responsible.

    21 20.79%
  • I oppose all abortion, so neither have the right.

    22 21.78%
  • I Don't Know.

    5 4.95%
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Thread: Should a Man have an Absolute Right to Choose to Abort His Baby?

  1. #1081
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    Re: Should a Man have an Absolute Right to Choose to Abort His Baby?

    Well I found something on "wikipedia" about this issue, and from two female woman's rights advocates:

    Melanie McCulley, a South Carolina attorney coined the term male abortion in 1998, suggesting that a father should be allowed to disclaim his obligations to an unborn child early in the pregnancy.[85] Proponents hold that concept begins with the premise that when an unmarried woman becomes pregnant, she has the option of abortion, adoption, or parenthood; and argues, in the context of legally recognized gender equality, that in the earliest stages of pregnancy the putative (alleged) father should have the same human rights to relinquish all future parental rights and financial responsibility—leaving the informed mother with the same three options.

    McCulley states:

    'When a female determines she is pregnant, she has the freedom to decide if she has the maturity level to undertake the responsibilities of motherhood, if she is financially able to support a child, if she is at a place in her career to take the time to have a child, or if she has other concerns precluding her from carrying the child to term. After weighing her options, the female may choose abortion. Once she aborts the fetus, the female's interests in and obligations to the child are terminated. In stark contrast, the unwed father has no options. His responsibilities to the child begin at conception and can only be terminated with the female's decision to abort the fetus or with the mother's decision to give the child up for adoption. Thus, he must rely on the decisions of the female to determine his future. The putative father does not have the luxury, after the fact of conception, to decide that he is not ready for fatherhood. Unlike the female, he has no escape route'.

    McCulley's male abortion concept aims to equalize the legal status of unwed men and unwed women by giving the unwed man by law the ability to 'abort' his rights in and obligations to the child. If a woman decides to keep the child the father may choose not to by severing all ties legally.

    This same concept has been supported by a former president of the feminist organization National Organization for Women, attorney Karen DeCrow, who wrote that "if a woman makes a unilateral decision to bring pregnancy to term, and the biological father does not, and cannot, share in this decision, he should not be liable for 21 years of support...autonomous women making independent decisions about their lives should not expect men to finance their choice."[86]

    The legal concept was tried in Dubay v. Wells and was dismissed. This was not surprising, since legislation in the various jurisdictions currently sets forth guidelines for when child support is owed as well as its amount. Accordingly legislation would be required to change the law to implement McCulley's concept.
    Child support - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    I guess there are efforts out there to try to change public policy.
    Last edited by Captain Adverse; 09-17-13 at 09:15 PM.
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    Re: Should a Man have an Absolute Right to Choose to Abort His Baby?

    Quote Originally Posted by Excon View Post
    No Jerry. You are wrong, as consent to have sex is not consent to a child.

    You have been asked twice so far to provide a SCOTUS case saying so.
    And you have failed at doing so both times - because you can't.
    You can't, because you are wrong.
    Consenting to sex is not consenting to children.


    Really?
    You think women are going to bring children into the world knowing that she wont be getting any support from the man?
    I am sure some will. But then we will be having those who choose otherwise.

    Then if there is still a problem with women bring children into this world that need to be supported by the state, then we can make further laws to prevent that.

    But back to the fairness. It will happen. Not in my lifetime, but it will happen. Attitudes are, and will continue to change.
    It is not fair for her to subject another to a hardship by her decision.
    Consenting to sex is consenting to have a child, and SCOTUS doesn't need to say it for it to be true, so asking for SCOTUS quotes is just stupid.

  3. #1083
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    Re: Should a Man have an Absolute Right to Choose to Abort His Baby?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    Consenting to sex is consenting to have a child, and SCOTUS doesn't need to say it for it to be true.
    NONSENSE...and each and every time you make this claim ...doesn't make it anymore true.

  4. #1084
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    Re: Should a Man have an Absolute Right to Choose to Abort His Baby?

    Quote Originally Posted by Excon View Post
    No Jerry. You are wrong, as consent to have sex is not consent to a child.

    You have been asked twice so far to provide a SCOTUS case saying so.
    And you have failed at doing so both times - because you can't.
    You can't, because you are wrong.
    Consenting to sex is not consenting to children.


    Really?
    You think women are going to bring children into the world knowing that she wont be getting any support from the man?
    I am sure some will. But then we will be having those who choose otherwise.

    Then if there is still a problem with women bring children into this world that need to be supported by the state, then we can make further laws to prevent that.

    But back to the fairness. It will happen. Not in my lifetime, but it will happen. Attitudes are, and will continue to change.
    It is not fair for her to subject another to a hardship by her decision.
    EX...we've had some difference in other topics.....but I am definitely onboard with you in this matter.

    "Biology alone" dictates that a woman should have the unilateral decision regarding the fate of a conception...within the parameter of the law. Then when we review the potential personal and social ramifications.. there could be many...if a woman isn't able to control her reproductive role.

    Men who think that an OPT-OUT law is the solution..is in complete denial....because a civilized society will NOT PERMIT the co-creator of a born child to be forced to be LESS CARED FOR...because of a DICK bio-dad...being an unhappy camper. Children cannot fend for themselves. It would be a equal crime for women to be forced to seek government help...when a bio-dad thinks he got an unfair deal...in the scheme of life. Also...what if a woman is against having an abortion or passing off a child to an adoption agency or people when she has no guarantee out the care the child will receive. There are numerous reasons NOT to consider this option as viable. It's nothing short of a not well thought out option...which is more of in line with magical thinking. Not logical thinking.

    There was a suggestion by Year2Late...sounds like a much cheaper alternative to deal with unintended conceptions. She posted the following:

    "Fornication Insurance": A man can opt out of child support if he is insured and the insurance pays out what should be child support .
    So...here's the deal. It's simple. No insurance...no nookie.

    Somethings in life are intrinsically unfair...and no solution based current knowledge and or technology. Women having unilateral control over conception is just one of these unfair life situations...for now.

  5. #1085
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    Re: Should a Man have an Absolute Right to Choose to Abort His Baby?

    Quote Originally Posted by Removable Mind View Post
    Oh, yes...there is coercion. You're assuming that just because a man wants opts out...she's obliged to just abort...since he's an unhappy camper. Not really. If not abort...then you have to assume that if she wants to proceed with having a child...well, she shouldn't have been so short sighted in not considering the possibility of an unintended conception, which her sex partner would freak out about and opt out. And the big coercion is...If she is against having an abortion and can't financially manage prenatal care...all the way up to child support. And there are other consideration...that I'm not going to post now.
    Oh no, that is not "coercion." That is assessing the facts and arriving at a rational and informed final decision. Furthermore, I never stated she was "obligated to abort," I stated that many woman who assess such (currently hypothetical) "facts" and come to realize that they won't have a "free ride" might opt to abort. However, if they feel up to the challenge of raising a child without support from the male they can still opt to carry the baby to term.

    Quote Originally Posted by Removable Mind View Post
    The biggest hole in this whole deal is what you want to eliminate in face of the outcome of an unintended conception brought to full term...regardless of reasons...and that is...once a birth has occurred...no civilized society is going to allow the man to NOT be beholding in at least his share of support. Not gonna happen.
    That's neither a "hole" nor an argument. Many Pro-Life advocates state "no civilized society allows a baby to be aborted;" so apparently to some we already live in an uncivilized society. My counter-statement is that no civilized society should allow such blatant inequity where one person has the absolute right to opt-out but the other does not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Removable Mind View Post
    If there's no reviewable language in how such an opt-out option would be constructed...then I don't see it as a viable option at all.
    We don't currently need "reviewable language; as it is currently a social dilemma forcing men into desparate acts like the kid who was convicted under this Unborn Victims of Violence Act created by Congress in 2011. The first thing to decide is, is the idea rational and truly equitable. That is part of what this debate is about, equal choice to accept or reject responsibility.
    Last edited by Captain Adverse; 09-17-13 at 09:35 PM.
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  6. #1086
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    Re: Should a Man have an Absolute Right to Choose to Abort His Baby?

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Adverse View Post
    Oh no, that is not "coercion." That is assessing the facts and arriving at a rational and informed final decision. Furthermore, I never stated she was "obligated to abort," I stated that many woman who assess such (currently hypothetical) "facts" and come to realize that they won't have a "free ride" might opt to abort. However, if they feel up to the challenge of raising a child without support from the male they can still opt to carry the baby to term.



    That's neither a "hole" nor an argument. Many Pro-Life advocates state "no civilized society allows a baby to be aborted;" so apparently to some we already live in an uncivilized society. My counter-statement is that no civilized society should allow such blatant inequity where one person has the absolute right to opt-out but the other does not.



    We don't currently need "reviewable language; as it is currently a social dilemma forcing men into desparate acts like the kid who was convicted under this Unborn Victims of Violence Act created by Congress in 2011. The first thing to decide is, is the idea rational and truly equitable. That is part of what this debate is about, equal choice to accept or reject responsibility.

    It's coercion...if women are forced to engage in other choice than they might not have...if a crybaby mistreated man...doesn't want to be legally obligated.

    Love your connection to UVVA...but when men or a woman feel compelled to negate rational differences between right and wrong...well, they most likely go to prison...and some are executed.

    Pro-life arguments ...meh. The arguments are at this date not legally relevant. They can't get convictions where there is no statutory crime committed. Boo hoo for Pro-life.

    Equitable solutions aren't possible...in an opt-out law. Or shall I say...you've yet provided me with any evidence...only about why men think they've been wrong in the greater scheme of life. Unilateral control by women...well, call it the greatest misjustice ever perpetrated on "men"..ever...and it still won't the biological necessity in woman in controlling the outcome of a conception.

    Kid's here...society says...it can't take care of itself. Sooooooo, yes, there would be a huge hole. And I can name a whole bunch of people who are gonna scream bloody murder when women start lining up for government assistance to raise a child...because a poor mistreated man opted out. There'll be a big demand on taxpayer's pocketbook.

    And Yes CA...we are a nation ruled by laws. And an Opt out would have to be legislated. Thus Yes ...a language would be necessary in order to enforce it.

  7. #1087
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    Re: Should a Man have an Absolute Right to Choose to Abort His Baby?

    Quote Originally Posted by Removable Mind View Post
    NONSENSE...and each and every time you make this claim ...doesn't make it anymore true.
    Denyal doesn't make it less true.

  8. #1088
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    Re: Should a Man have an Absolute Right to Choose to Abort His Baby?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisL View Post
    I just hope people teach their sons better than this. This is disgusting.

    Very depressing too that people have such attitudes. Very sad indeed that it's come to this.
    Frankly, I did teach my sons exactly that. I taught them that they would be wise to make sure they could not get a girl pregnant, because so many girls aren't reliable to protect themselves, regardless of what they may tell you. I taught them not to trust in what they were being told by girls regarding birth control, and that if they were wise, they would either avoid having sex, or use condoms every single time they had sex. I, as a mother, was not willing to trust a stupid teenage girl with my son's future, and rightfully so.

    This thread is a perfect example of why I taught my sons as I did.
    Last edited by lizzie; 09-17-13 at 10:15 PM.
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  9. #1089
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    Re: Should a Man have an Absolute Right to Choose to Abort His Baby?

    Quote Originally Posted by Korimyr the Rat View Post
    If there is no responsibility before the child is born, how then does the "father" become responsible afterwards?
    It's called "birth"

    It can't be the decision to conceive the child, because that decision obviously did not create any responsibility toward the child-- either on his part or on the mother's. So what decision makes the father responsible for the born child?
    Birth is not a "decision"; it's an "event"
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

  10. #1090
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    Re: Should a Man have an Absolute Right to Choose to Abort His Baby?

    Quote Originally Posted by AlabamaPaul View Post
    The only problem is that under most State laws the responsibility is forcibly a shared one where the man has no "choice"...
    And neither does the mother

    Both parents are forced to be responsible for the child once it's born
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

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