View Poll Results: Are You Fine with the NSA Sharing Data with Israel?

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  • Yes

    13 27.66%
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    34 72.34%
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Thread: Are You Fine with the NSA Sharing Data with Israel?

  1. #31
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    Re: Are You Fine with the NSA Sharing Data with Israel?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    People who prefer not to see a country that sits on one of the worlds' economic arteries (the Suez) fall into the camp of Iran, Russia, or (maybe worse) chaos?
    That's the same thing that the government said about Iran when they initiated a coup. Look at what happened thereafter.

    You stated that there was NO reason for the U.S. to collect FISA data and NO reason for it to be shared with other governments. I gave you two very good reasons, and your continued inability to address them is noted.
    Your amazing reasons didn't even come close to proving why we need data on everyone. Why could it not be done with standard warrants? Why must everyone be spied on?

    I wouldn't criticize the use of bombing in WWII; we lacked the ability to strike at industrial centers with any more accuracy than we had. It was a total war effort for both sides. I would criticize the use of Agent Orange in Vietnam, along with most of our strategy in Vietnam (until Abrams took over), as needlessly destructive and counterproductive. That criticism is included in the paragraph you so blithely skipped over. Collateral Damage is supposed to be relative to the military advantage gained in order to be lawful under the Geneva Conventions, and I continue to support applying that standard.
    Collateral damage is supposed to be relative? So then you're fine with innocent lives being taken. Noted.

    However, the bombing targets in Vietnam, the use of large-scale aerial power in WWII, and event the use of drone-strikes in Pakistan now are not military decisions - they are political decisions taken by our civilian leadership. If you wanted me to criticize something that our political leadership has done with regards to its' control over the military, you should have asked for that instead. The military does not decide when or where or to an extent how to go to war.
    The military carries out the actions. It's like blaming the mob boss for the crime and not the hitman.

    an easy argument that is given the lie by history. there was plenty of trade between the north and the south before our Civil War, and between Germany and Britain before WWI. Trade reduces the chances of conflict, it nowhere near ensures its absence.
    Your history is wrong. There was massive increase in protectionism prior to WWI. As for the Civil War, that is a little bit different, don't you think? Lincoln felt that the South had betrayed him and so invaded. That and consider the lost tax revenue.

    Of course you believe that. Because you hate America.

    (see how stupid the ad hominem is?)
    It's tough for me to defend a guy who sees the loss of innocent lives as worth it and the spying on all Americans as necessary and good.

    Tell me, was the loss of 100,000 lives in Iraq because of the embargo, as Susan Rice put it, worth it?

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

  2. #32
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    Re: Are You Fine with the NSA Sharing Data with Israel?

    Quote Originally Posted by JumpinJack View Post
    Our country has ALWAYS shared information and data with its allies. And they have ALWAYS shared information and data with us. Remember that another country warned us about one of the Boston bombers from that country's intel? They provided his name and other personal information. This is normal, as far as I can tell.
    I'm not talking about leads, I'm talking about the mass data that the US collects from us.

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

  3. #33
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    Re: Are You Fine with the NSA Sharing Data with Israel?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Precisely. The NSA is even directly tasked to perform this duty in Executive Order 12333, which has been in effect (and public knowledge) since Reagan.
    Though since Reagan the NSA collects now just a little bit more data.

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

  4. #34
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    Re: Are You Fine with the NSA Sharing Data with Israel?

    Anything to help stop terrorism

  5. #35
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    Re: Are You Fine with the NSA Sharing Data with Israel?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    If it includes personal info on American citizens who are NOT suspected terrorists, I have a problem with that. From what I heard, this is the case.
    Why would they share personal data about citizens? Why would anyone care about my boring day? I don't get it.

  6. #36
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    Re: Are You Fine with the NSA Sharing Data with Israel?

    That wasn't just a lead. That was specific information about an individual....his travel, his phone number, his address, his name, his friends, his family. I suppose you mean a large amount of data. Hmmmm. I'm not sure I believe that the US is dumping a large amount of data regarding unimportant people on other countries, who wouldn't even care about such data. Or vice versa. For one thing, that would interfere with zeroing in on important people. It would be just noise. It's possible. But it doesn't make sense. And like Judge Judy says...."If it doesn't make sense, it's not true."

  7. #37
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    Re: Are You Fine with the NSA Sharing Data with Israel?

    Do I get some hummus out of it?
    Michael J Petrilli-"Is School Choice Enough?"-A response to the recent timidity of American conservatives toward education reform. https://nationalaffairs.com/publicat...-choice-enough

  8. #38
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    Re: Are You Fine with the NSA Sharing Data with Israel?

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    Though since Reagan the NSA collects now just a little bit more data.
    there is much more data to collect, and our means of collection are far superior.

    As far as statutory limitations on the ability of the executive to collect foreign intelligence in U.S. territory, the restrictions are actually greater now than they were back in the pre-Reagan era.

  9. #39
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    Re: Are You Fine with the NSA Sharing Data with Israel?

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    That's the same thing that the government said about Iran when they initiated a coup
    Uh, no. The worry with Iran was that it would fall under the umbrella of the USSR, not that it would fall into chaos.

    Look at what happened thereafter.
    A successful coup enabled by the CIA that stabilized the thing for over a decade before we failed to pay attention and Islamists took advantage?

    Your amazing reasons didn't even come close to proving why we need data on everyone.
    That is not the threshold you demanded. You stated that there was NO reason to collect FISA information and NO reason to share FISA intelligence with other nations. Once you are willing to address the failure of that claim, I'd be happy to move on to a discussion of Big Data. But what you are doing here is an attempt to change the subject - and you are more intellectually honest than that, phatz.

    Why could it not be done with standard warrants? Why must everyone be spied on?
    Easy answer; everyone isn't.

    Collateral damage is supposed to be relative? So then you're fine with innocent lives being taken. Noted.
    Naturally. You aren't going to be able to wage war without it. For that matter, you're not going to be able to have a police force, or have a citizenry that exercises its' right to self-defense, or have people drive without innocent lives being taken. If we instituted a blanket "no strikes if it might ever cost an innocent life" rule, all that would happen is that the enemy would immediately begin to use human shields as he carried out attacks. More innocent people would die under such a foolish regulation. That is why the Geneva Conventions wisely state that the collateral damage must be relative to the military advantage gained.

    The military carries out the actions. It's like blaming the mob boss for the crime and not the hitman.
    Not at all. You are referencing political decisions - decisions which, in our government, the military does not have a choice over. We have civilian control over the military in this country for Very, Very, Good Reason. The military does not have the right to usurp the authority of the President or the Congress.

    Your history is wrong. There was massive increase in protectionism prior to WWI.
    I believe you are thinking of the period roughly a decade before the outbreak of WWII, when there was indeed a massive increase in protectionism, much to the global detriment.

    As for the Civil War, that is a little bit different, don't you think?
    Not for purposes of the thesis you have put forth.

    It's tough for me to defend a guy who sees the loss of innocent lives as worth it and the spying on all Americans as necessary and good.
    The loss of innocent lives can be worth it, and spying on all Americans isn't currently performed.

    Tell me, was the loss of 100,000 lives in Iraq because of the embargo, as Susan Rice put it, worth it?
    It's a good question, considering that sanctions do not tend to change the behavior of complete autocracies (they may have effect on autocratic / representative mixtures, such as in South Africa and Iran), and tend to harm the populace rather than the leadership. The best argument is that it is the only way short of actual invasion to keep a regime at a certain level of capability. I would tend to look with jaundice at the claim of 100,000, since I have mostly seen it in the hands of those with a political ax to grind, but certainly many more than that suffered.

  10. #40
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    Re: Are You Fine with the NSA Sharing Data with Israel?

    I don't see the US sharing personal information about a citizen with another country unless there is a good reason. It just doesn't make any sense.

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