View Poll Results: Are You Fine with the NSA Sharing Data with Israel?

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Thread: Are You Fine with the NSA Sharing Data with Israel?

  1. #21
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    Re: Are You Fine with the NSA Sharing Data with Israel?

    I really don't understand what the issue is. It is not like the NSA is going to be sharing your personal phone conversation with your mother-in-law about what your going to eat for christmas dinner really matters to the NSA. I really don't understand the alarmism over this information collection and sharing. The NSA / US Government is simply not interested in information about the every day law abiding citizen. I am not sure why people think that the government would be interested in there otherwise uninteresting lives. Maybe because they want to feel important?? I really don't know. I still have not heard one good reason to fear information gathering by the government.
    - There was never a good war, or a bad peace.
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  2. #22
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    Re: Are You Fine with the NSA Sharing Data with Israel?

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    If it was all good intentions then we would have given up minimum wage and foreign aid decades ago. The carnage that the US military brings overseas cannot be denied. You're speaking nonsense.
    hey, remember this part?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill
    to be equal parts ludicrous and self-destructive. These things tend to do more damage to their own side through guilt-by-association than they do good by raising public awareness of their concerns, not least because they tend to assume that those opposed to them (or who simply disagree with them) are evil rather than in a state of disagreement.
    Dwell on that for a minute

    The solutions you find so blindingly self-evident are not the conclusions that others come to, and they are not ill-intentioned simply because they have the effrontery to come to a different conclusion.

    Ugh, give it a rest. This garbage needs to end. There is NO REASON that the US government needs all of this information. NONE. And not only are they taking it, but they're distributing it around the world?
    On the contrary, there are very, very good reasons why we would collect FISA information. For example, if we were not allowed to ever justify collection on US entities, we would be unable to protect the homeland and our critical national infrastructure (such as, for example, air-traffic control and nuclear power plants) from cyber attacks. There are also excellent reasons for us to share information with other nations. For example, if we were unable to share information with other nations, we would be severely hindered in our efforts to track the most violent of the cartels, who operate both within and outside CONUS.

    This is loathsome, and what's worse is that you defend it.
    Remember that part earlier about how you accusing those with whom you disagree of being evil makes you look childish and uninformed more than it makes them look evil?

    You're better than that, Phatz.

    I'd rather trade goods with them rather than teaming up on invading and toppling other nations myself.
    These are our allies. We do trade goods with them. We also collect on them and they on us, as otherwise our national decision-making is less informed and therefore more dangerous.

    Guess I'm just some crazy idealist, though.
    Nope, just an relatively uninformed national security hypochondriac who (as most folks do) probably means well.

  3. #23
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    Re: Are You Fine with the NSA Sharing Data with Israel?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    hey, remember this part?



    Dwell on that for a minute

    The solutions you find so blindingly self-evident are not the conclusions that others come to, and they are not ill-intentioned simply because they have the effrontery to come to a different conclusion.
    The conclusions are obvious to any who's intellectually honest.

    [quote[On the contrary, there are very, very good reasons why we would collect FISA information. For example, if we were not allowed to ever justify collection on US entities, we would be unable to protect the homeland and our critical national infrastructure (such as, for example, air-traffic control and nuclear power plants) from cyber attacks. There are also excellent reasons for us to share information with other nations. For example, if we were unable to share information with other nations, we would be severely hindered in our efforts to track the most violent of the cartels, who operate both within and outside CONUS.[/quote]

    Therefore we need information on every American and every call that they make. No, warrants aren't good enough anymore. Give it a rest already!

    Remember that part earlier about how you accusing those with whom you disagree of being evil makes you look childish and uninformed more than it makes them look evil?

    You're better than that, Phatz.
    Defending everything that the military does, especially warrantless wiretaps and the demolition of the 4th amendment, is pretty tough to call anything but evil.

    Seriously, can you criticize anything that the military has done?

    These are our allies. We do trade goods with them. We also collect on them and they on us, as otherwise our national decision-making is less informed and therefore more dangerous.
    There's a reason that the US is beligerent toward Iran and not Saudi Arabia, or is Saudi Arabia a-okay with you?

    Nope, just an relatively uninformed national security hypochondriac who (as most folks do) probably means well.
    I'll remember not to question the almight cpwill next time. He knows everything about security so us minions shouldn't question him. Do you even listen to yourself?

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
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  4. #24
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    Re: Are You Fine with the NSA Sharing Data with Israel?

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    The conclusions are obvious to any who's intellectually honest.
    Yeah. That's what Islamist terrorists think, too. The idea that one must be evil or lying to believe differently is a fantastic way to dehumanize the otherside and justify whatever idiotic method of of opposition you come up with.

    However the number of intellectually honest people who come to different conclusions rather belies the claim, which is why those who make it are so often relegated to any consensual societies' extremes, little respected and (until they turn violent) largely ignored.

    Therefore we need information on every American and every call that they make. No, warrants aren't good enough anymore. Give it a rest already!
    Hey look!

    A Strawman!

    You stated that there was NO reason to collect FISA data or share it with other states. I gave you merely two of several very good reasons to do so. When you are able to either refute those instances or admit that your earlier blanket denial was in error, let me know. Either will require more thought or maturity than you have thus far (sadly) demonstrated in discussing this topic.

    Defending everything that the military does, especially warrantless wiretaps and the demolition of the 4th amendment, is pretty tough to call anything but evil.
    1. I don't defend everything that the military does.
    2. The military does not do warrantless wiretaps of American citizens. That would be a EO1233 violation, and those who did so would go to jail. I have actually seen military personnel, in fact, go to jail precisely for using their training and assets to collect on an AMCIT (in this case a SSgt who caught his wife cheating on him).
    3. Calling your opposition evil because they disagree with you remains a childish and frankly totalitarian tactic. That form of dehumanization has a long, sordid, abusive history.

    Seriously, can you criticize anything that the military has done?
    Yup. The decision to send home the Iraqi Army with their weapons was atrocious. The decision to let the Shia run wild after the push through Badghdad was incredibly costly. The laxity with which we handled sexual assault complaints in the late 20th century was atrocious and abusive towards our fellow Marines, soldiers, sailers, and airmen. Military leadership is often needlessly timid and willing to abandon their own because of command pressure, political pressure, or the desire to fit in well in Washington. The decision to allow deployed soldiers real-time access to social media has turned (whatever morale benefits) into an OPSEC nightmare, and it is only a matter of time before it costs lives. The military has been painfully slow to accept needed innovation, and that may very well have been responsible for us unnecessarily losing in Vietnam and possibly Afghanistan (and it almost lost Iraq). The military promotes its people by longevity (how long have you been in) at the bottom and middle, and by political connections (who do you know who will vouch for you) at the very top, thus encouraging an exodus of our top talent and the unwise needless promotion of many individuals of middling or sub-par ability beyond their capability to effectively perform. We have a healthcare/pension structure that is eating at our ability to provide a military capability to the nation at cost. The decision to start integrating women into combat units such as the infantry is a political one that is going to have deadly consequences for our young people on the back end.... and our leadership probably either doesn't care, or would care, but feels they have to do so in order to "get along", and so they pretend to themselves that it won't be a problem.

    There is a reason why strips such as Terminal Lance are wildly popular within the military ranks. We are plenty self-critical of the idiocies that come along with working in a branch of the Federal Government.

    There's a reason that the US is beligerent toward Iran and not Saudi Arabia, or is Saudi Arabia a-okay with you?
    Depends on how you mean A-Okay. Saudi Arabia isn't attempting to shove us out of the Persian Gulf in order to enforce regional hegemony and threaten our economy at will to force geopolitical concessions from us. Saudi Arabia is, however, an incredibly abusive and corrupt regime. Iran is a deliberate state backer of terrorists and paramilitary/covert groups that have killed thousands of Americans, Saudi Arabia is a fitful and sometimes ineffective pursuer of those same groups.

    Saudi Arabia is a corrupt kingdom. However, its interest align more with ours and it is a partner nation in trying to maintain stability in the worlds least-stable center of gravity.

    I'll remember not to question the almight cpwill next time. He knows everything about security so us minions shouldn't question him. Do you even listen to yourself?
    Dude. Have you been paying attention to the hysterics you've brought in here? You're the equivalent of a guy claiming imminent collapse of the global economy who in the next breath offers as an aside that bond prices and yields move together rather than in opposite directions - making Very Very Very Obvious Errors that demonstrate that your analysis isn't fed by anything but groupthink and paranoia. I'm no genius, but it doesn't exactly take a genius to figure out things like "hey, maybe people who disagree with me think that they are in the right, too."

  5. #25
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    Re: Are You Fine with the NSA Sharing Data with Israel?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Yeah. That's what Islamist terrorists think, too. The idea that one must be evil or lying to believe differently is a fantastic way to dehumanize the otherside and justify whatever idiotic method of of opposition you come up with.

    However the number of intellectually honest people who come to different conclusions rather belies the claim, which is why those who make it are so often relegated to any consensual societies' extremes, little respected and (until they turn violent) largely ignored.
    Tell me who, among the intellectually honest, still supports giving foreign aid to Egypt?

    Hey look!

    A Strawman!

    You stated that there was NO reason to collect FISA data or share it with other states. I gave you merely two of several very good reasons to do so. When you are able to either refute those instances or admit that your earlier blanket denial was in error, let me know. Either will require more thought or maturity than you have thus far (sadly) demonstrated in discussing this topic.
    You have not made the case why everyone needs to be spied upon and why warrants based on reasonable suspicion are too much to ask.

    1. I don't defend everything that the military does.
    2. The military does not do warrantless wiretaps of American citizens. That would be a EO1233 violation, and those who did so would go to jail. I have actually seen military personnel, in fact, go to jail precisely for using their training and assets to collect on an AMCIT (in this case a SSgt who caught his wife cheating on him).
    3. Calling your opposition evil because they disagree with you remains a childish and frankly totalitarian tactic. That form of dehumanization has a long, sordid, abusive history.
    Criticize something that the military has done, and make it substantial. Come on, I beg of you.

    Yup. The decision to send home the Iraqi Army with their weapons was atrocious. The decision to let the Shia run wild after the push through Badghdad was incredibly costly. The laxity with which we handled sexual assault complaints in the late 20th century was atrocious and abusive towards our fellow Marines, soldiers, sailers, and airmen. Military leadership is often needlessly timid and willing to abandon their own because of command pressure, political pressure, or the desire to fit in well in Washington. The decision to allow deployed soldiers real-time access to social media has turned (whatever morale benefits) into an OPSEC nightmare, and it is only a matter of time before it costs lives. The military has been painfully slow to accept needed innovation, and that may very well have been responsible for us unnecessarily losing in Vietnam and possibly Afghanistan (and it almost lost Iraq). The military promotes its people by longevity (how long have you been in) at the bottom and middle, and by political connections (who do you know who will vouch for you) at the very top, thus encouraging an exodus of our top talent and the unwise needless promotion of many individuals of middling or sub-par ability beyond their capability to effectively perform. We have a healthcare/pension structure that is eating at our ability to provide a military capability to the nation at cost. The decision to start integrating women into combat units such as the infantry is a political one that is going to have deadly consequences for our young people on the back end.... and our leadership probably either doesn't care, or would care, but feels they have to do so in order to "get along", and so they pretend to themselves that it won't be a problem.

    There is a reason why strips such as Terminal Lance are wildly popular within the military ranks. We are plenty self-critical of the idiocies that come along with working in a branch of the Federal Government.
    Yawn, like I thought, technical criticisms and issues with the bureaucracy. I figured you wouldn't criticize something like the use of Agent Orange, the bombing of innocent civilians during WWII, the use of drones to kill innocent civilians, or any abhorrent practice.

    Depends on how you mean A-Okay. Saudi Arabia isn't attempting to shove us out of the Persian Gulf in order to enforce regional hegemony and threaten our economy at will to force geopolitical concessions from us. Saudi Arabia is, however, an incredibly abusive and corrupt regime. Iran is a deliberate state backer of terrorists and paramilitary/covert groups that have killed thousands of Americans, Saudi Arabia is a fitful and sometimes ineffective pursuer of those same groups.

    Saudi Arabia is a corrupt kingdom. However, its interest align more with ours and it is a partner nation in trying to maintain stability in the worlds least-stable center of gravity.
    We get their oil, so anything that they do gets a pass from us. Yet, take a look at how we have had sanctions against Iran and Iraq. Look at how the US installs dictators across the globe who are friendly to trade with the US. Trade prevents wars. If goods aren't crossing borders, armies will.

    Dude. Have you been paying attention to the hysterics you've brought in here? You're the equivalent of a guy claiming imminent collapse of the global economy who in the next breath offers as an aside that bond prices and yields move together rather than in opposite directions - making Very Very Very Obvious Errors that demonstrate that your analysis isn't fed by anything but groupthink and paranoia. I'm no genius, but it doesn't exactly take a genius to figure out things like "hey, maybe people who disagree with me think that they are in the right, too."
    Except you're not in the right and you've made no coherent case as to why all Americans should be spied upon. Most people are extremely uncomfortable with it, yet you defend it as necessary. Is it just that you trust the US government, because I assure you that if this was some foreign dictator you'd have major problems with the policy.

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

  6. #26
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    Re: Are You Fine with the NSA Sharing Data with Israel?

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    Because they've done it. Yes or no.

    EDIT: To clarify, this is your personal data that is being shared with Israel.
    I think if the US is somehow "paying" for that data in some way, it is illegal because at that point Israel (or another country) is acting as an agent of the US (working for the US) and that would violate the 4th amendment. If Israel is volunteering that information without being compensated in some way, then it maintains its foreign government status independent of the US.

    Edit: With the caveat contained in that amendment

  7. #27
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    Re: Are You Fine with the NSA Sharing Data with Israel?

    Quote Originally Posted by DiAnna View Post
    We've been exchanging data with Israel and vice-versa for as long as Israel has existed. This is not a revelation.

    EDIT: To clarify, nobody in Israel is interested in my personal information. If I start getting spam from Tel Aviv trying to sell me property in the West Bank, then I'll be concerned. Otherwise, not so much.
    Ha! If you only knew how infamous you are.
    If you claim sexual harassment to be wrong, yet you defend anyone on your side for any reason,
    then you are a hypocrite and everything you say on the matter is just babble.

  8. #28
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    Re: Are You Fine with the NSA Sharing Data with Israel?

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    Tell me who, among the intellectually honest, still supports giving foreign aid to Egypt?
    People who prefer not to see a country that sits on one of the worlds' economic arteries (the Suez) fall into the camp of Iran, Russia, or (maybe worse) chaos?

    You have not made the case why everyone needs to be spied upon and why warrants based on reasonable suspicion are too much to ask.
    You stated that there was NO reason for the U.S. to collect FISA data and NO reason for it to be shared with other governments. I gave you two very good reasons, and your continued inability to address them is noted.

    Criticize something that the military has done, and make it substantial. Come on, I beg of you.

    Yawn, like I thought, technical criticisms and issues with the bureaucracy. I figured you wouldn't criticize something like the use of Agent Orange, the bombing of innocent civilians during WWII, the use of drones to kill innocent civilians, or any abhorrent practice.
    I wouldn't criticize the use of bombing in WWII; we lacked the ability to strike at industrial centers with any more accuracy than we had. It was a total war effort for both sides. I would criticize the use of Agent Orange in Vietnam, along with most of our strategy in Vietnam (until Abrams took over), as needlessly destructive and counterproductive. That criticism is included in the paragraph you so blithely skipped over. Collateral Damage is supposed to be relative to the military advantage gained in order to be lawful under the Geneva Conventions, and I continue to support applying that standard.

    However, the bombing targets in Vietnam, the use of large-scale aerial power in WWII, and event the use of drone-strikes in Pakistan now are not military decisions - they are political decisions taken by our civilian leadership. If you wanted me to criticize something that our political leadership has done with regards to its' control over the military, you should have asked for that instead. The military does not decide when or where or to an extent how to go to war.

    We get their oil, so anything that they do gets a pass from us. Yet, take a look at how we have had sanctions against Iran and Iraq. Look at how the US installs dictators across the globe who are friendly to trade with the US. Trade prevents wars. If goods aren't crossing borders, armies will.
    an easy argument that is given the lie by history. there was plenty of trade between the north and the south before our Civil War, and between Germany and Britain before WWI. Trade reduces the chances of conflict, it nowhere near ensures its absence.

    Except you're not in the right and you've made no coherent case as to why all Americans should be spied upon. Most people are extremely uncomfortable with it, yet you defend it as necessary. Is it just that you trust the US government, because I assure you that if this was some foreign dictator you'd have major problems with the policy.
    Of course you believe that. Because you hate America.


    (see how stupid the ad hominem is?)

  9. #29
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    Re: Are You Fine with the NSA Sharing Data with Israel?

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    Because they've done it. Yes or no.

    EDIT: To clarify, this is your personal data that is being shared with Israel.
    Our country has ALWAYS shared information and data with its allies. And they have ALWAYS shared information and data with us. Remember that another country warned us about one of the Boston bombers from that country's intel? They provided his name and other personal information. This is normal, as far as I can tell.

  10. #30
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    Re: Are You Fine with the NSA Sharing Data with Israel?

    Quote Originally Posted by JumpinJack View Post
    Our country has ALWAYS shared information and data with its allies. And they have ALWAYS shared information and data with us. Remember that another country warned us about one of the Boston bombers from that country's intel? They provided his name and other personal information. This is normal, as far as I can tell.
    Precisely. The NSA is even directly tasked to perform this duty in Executive Order 12333, which has been in effect (and public knowledge) since Reagan.

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