View Poll Results: Are You Fine with the NSA Sharing Data with Israel?

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Thread: Are You Fine with the NSA Sharing Data with Israel?

  1. #11
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    Re: Are You Fine with the NSA Sharing Data with Israel?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    and deciding to end that relationship because we are aghast at the notion that a U.S. citizen might be a bad actor would be.... well, it would be a very bad idea.
    They are getting unfiltered data, that is data on ALL Americans, not just suspected terrorists. But please, try again with your excuses.

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

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    Re: Are You Fine with the NSA Sharing Data with Israel?

    Why, the Lord already knows every little step I make, isn't that right?

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    Re: Are You Fine with the NSA Sharing Data with Israel?

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    Because they've done it. Yes or no.

    EDIT: To clarify, this is your personal data that is being shared with Israel.
    I am not comfortable with the NSA spying on Americans.So I am most certainly not comfortable with the NSA sharing any data with another country.
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

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  4. #14
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    Re: Are You Fine with the NSA Sharing Data with Israel?

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    They are getting unfiltered data, that is data on ALL Americans, not just suspected terrorists. But please, try again with your excuses.
    Ah, no. That is not correct. Allow me to quote the guy whose credibility on this is questionable, but whom certain more excitable elements have decided to glorify:

    WASHINGTON — The National Security Agency routinely shares raw intelligence data with Israel that probably includes sensitive information about Americans, according to the latest top-secret document leaked by former intelligence contractor Edward Snowden.

    The 2009 document, a memorandum of understanding between the NSA and its Israeli counterpart, says the U.S. government regularly hands over intercepted communications that have not first been reviewed by U.S. analysts and therefore may contain phone calls and emails of American citizens.

    The agreement allows for the possibility that intercepts given to Israel might include the communications of U.S. government officials, in which case Israel is supposed to destroy them immediately. Other data on U.S. citizens who aren't in the government, however, can be kept by Israel for up to a year, according to the document, first published Wednesday by Britain's Guardian newspaper.

    NSA officials declined to answer questions but issued a statement saying, "Whenever we share intelligence information, we comply with all applicable rules, including the rules to protect U.S. person information."...
    probably.... maybe.... might..... some.

    Snowden (again) is talking about stuff about which he knows very little. I guess either it's been too long since he's seen himself in the papers, or his new Russian friends wanted to create problems at home for the Obama administration in order to secure their Syria deal.

    But please, tell me more given your vast background knowledge of U.S. defense and the intelligence community.

    Because the last time you believed what the hyperventilators told you, you suggested that we were about to invade Libya with a single battalion of Marines.

    Further down the article...

    The reason that risks are taken with Israel, the second former official said, is because Israel and the U.S. have many mutual foreign policy interests, and Israel in some cases has greater expertise in Middle Eastern languages and cultures.

    "Managing the intel-sharing relationship is always kind of a quid pro quo," the official said. "One country may have access to certain communications that we can't otherwise get, so there are decisions made at fairly high levels whether or not it's worth it to share."
    Hey, that's interesting. That sounds pretty much exactly like what I said .
    Last edited by cpwill; 09-12-13 at 05:20 PM.

  5. #15
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    Re: Are You Fine with the NSA Sharing Data with Israel?

    Fine then, let's ask Americans if they are fine with the NSA handing over communications that haven't been filtered to ensure that our privacy is safe. Do you really think that they're fine with that?

    Why is it that you see the government as an awful and terrible entity when it comes to social spending, but an eminent deity when it comes to the military?

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

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    Are You Fine with the NSA Sharing Data with Israel?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Ah, no. That is not correct. Allow me to quote the guy whose credibility on this is questionable, but whom certain more excitable elements have decided to glorify:



    probably.... maybe.... might..... some.

    Snowden (again) is talking about stuff about which he knows very little. I guess either it's been too long since he's seen himself in the papers, or his new Russian friends wanted to create problems at home for the Obama administration in order to secure their Syria deal.

    But please, tell me more given your vast background knowledge of U.S. defense and the intelligence community.

    Because the last time you believed what the hyperventilators told you, you suggested that we were about to invade Libya with a single battalion of Marines.

    Further down the article...



    Hey, that's interesting. That sounds pretty much exactly like what I said .
    I think you give Snowden too much credit in that he analyses the data and feeds the analysis to the media. The media analyses the raw data he provided. His personal credibility is a non issue.

  7. #17
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    Re: Are You Fine with the NSA Sharing Data with Israel?

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    Fine then, let's ask Americans if they are fine with the NSA handing over communications that haven't been filtered to ensure that our privacy is safe. Do you really think that they're fine with that?

    Why is it that you see the government as an awful and terrible entity when it comes to social spending, but an eminent deity when it comes to the military?
    I don't see it in either set of terms. Manichaeism is a construct for those who prefer the soothing tones of simple narratives over more complex reality. Most of our social spending is a mixture of well-intentioned and politically driven efforts by fallible human beings to do the right thing as near as they see it and most of our national security efforts are the same (Our social spending is simply currently structured to produce massive destructive and unintended consequences, which agreeably can be part and parcel of our national security efforts as well). I find the same hyperventilating against both:

    "Obammer is a athiest kenyan muslim who's gonna have the IRS and FEMA take all our guns and make us marry gays!",

    and

    "Evil shadowy no-good evil-doers in smoky rooms are gonna read my emails, find out I'm cheating on my girlfriend and give that information to the Israelis, and have me assassinated for blogging about it!"

    to be equal parts ludicrous and self-destructive. These things tend to do more damage to their own side through guilt-by-association than they do good by raising public awareness of their concerns, not least because they tend to assume that those opposed to them (or who simply disagree with them) are evil rather than in a state of disagreement.

    We have an intelligence sharing relationship not just with the Israelis, and also with Great Britain, Australia, New Zealand, etc. so on and so forth - if we didn't, our national security posture would be severely weakened; we depend on the efforts of our partner nations just as they depend on ours. Heck, if we were tracking a transnational criminal unit that operated back and forth between ourselves and China (such as the Triads or some such) we would probably even share information on those cases with our Chinese counterparts. That doesn't mean (and you'll note he doesn't even make the claim that it means) that we give them access to everyone's email. It means we share information on these groups, and try to help with vetted collection requests when beneficial.

    You know how folks are always talking about how we need to work with other countries, have a reduced presence, etc., instead of trying to be hegemon and go it alone? Welcome to the reality of that policy.

  8. #18
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    Re: Are You Fine with the NSA Sharing Data with Israel?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben K. View Post
    I think you give Snowden too much credit in that he analyses the data and feeds the analysis to the media. The media analyses the raw data he provided. His personal credibility is a non issue.
    It's pretty obvious he went with and chose his data for the first batches, it's hard to imagine (if he is still a free actor) that he's not doing the same now.

  9. #19
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    Re: Are You Fine with the NSA Sharing Data with Israel?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    I don't see it in either set of terms. Manichaeism is a construct for those who prefer the soothing tones of simple narratives over more complex reality. Most of our social spending is a mixture of well-intentioned and politically driven efforts by fallible human beings to do the right thing as near as they see it and most of our national security efforts are the same (Our social spending is simply currently structured to produce massive destructive and unintended consequences, which agreeably can be part and parcel of our national security efforts as well). I find the same hyperventilating against both:
    If it was all good intentions then we would have given up minimum wage and foreign aid decades ago. The carnage that the US military brings overseas cannot be denied. You're speaking nonsense.


    "Evil shadowy no-good evil-doers in smoky rooms are gonna read my emails, find out I'm cheating on my girlfriend and give that information to the Israelis, and have me assassinated for blogging about it!"

    to be equal parts ludicrous and self-destructive. These things tend to do more damage to their own side through guilt-by-association than they do good by raising public awareness of their concerns, not least because they tend to assume that those opposed to them (or who simply disagree with them) are evil rather than in a state of disagreement.

    We have an intelligence sharing relationship not just with the Israelis, and also with Great Britain, Australia, New Zealand, etc. so on and so forth - if we didn't, our national security posture would be severely weakened; we depend on the efforts of our partner nations just as they depend on ours. Heck, if we were tracking a transnational criminal unit that operated back and forth between ourselves and China (such as the Triads or some such) we would probably even share information on those cases with our Chinese counterparts. That doesn't mean (and you'll note he doesn't even make the claim that it means) that we give them access to everyone's email. It means we share information on these groups, and try to help with vetted collection requests when beneficial.
    Ugh, give it a rest. This garbage needs to end. There is NO REASON that the US government needs all of this information. NONE. And not only are they taking it, but they're distributing it around the world? This is loathsome, and what's worse is that you defend it.

    You know how folks are always talking about how we need to work with other countries, have a reduced presence, etc., instead of trying to be hegemon and go it alone? Welcome to the reality of that policy.
    I'd rather trade goods with them rather than teaming up on invading and toppling other nations myself. Guess I'm just some crazy idealist, though.

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

  10. #20
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    Re: Are You Fine with the NSA Sharing Data with Israel?

    I'm okay with the NSA sharing information in a general sense with any country they feel is appropriate. I am against the NSA having any information on ME, let alone share it with anyone.
    Having opinions all over the map is a good sign of a person capable of autonomous thinking. Felix -2011

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