View Poll Results: Should Gun Violence be a Homeland Security Issue?

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  • Yes

    6 13.64%
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Thread: Should Gun Violence be a Homeland Security Issue?

  1. #41
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    Re: Should Gun Violence be a Homeland Security Issue?

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    Crime is a local issue not a federal issue. That said I would be all for sending gang bangers to Gitmo or Abu Ghraib prison to be waterboarded on a daily basis.
    Do you think it should be changed to a federal or state issue? It's the only way we got rid of the Hell's Angels in Canada.

  2. #42
    Advisor aberrant85's Avatar
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    Re: Should Gun Violence be a Homeland Security Issue?

    Quote Originally Posted by Carjosse View Post
    Do you think it should be changed to a federal or state issue? It's the only way we got rid of the Hell's Angels in Canada.
    I think it already is, isn't it? There are federal gun control laws, etc.

  3. #43
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    Re: Should Gun Violence be a Homeland Security Issue?

    Quote Originally Posted by aberrant85 View Post
    I think it already is, isn't it? There are federal gun control laws, etc.
    No like federal police and law enforcement should be involved in suppressing gang activity. They would basically be the big guns quite literally.

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    Re: Should Gun Violence be a Homeland Security Issue?

    Quote Originally Posted by Carjosse View Post
    No like federal police and law enforcement should be involved in suppressing gang activity. They would basically be the big guns quite literally.
    Interesting idea.

  5. #45
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    Re: Should Gun Violence be a Homeland Security Issue?

    Quote Originally Posted by aberrant85 View Post
    This is ridiculous. A gun is not just a projection of its owner's goodness or badness like a wand in Harry Potter. It is an indifferent object capable of inflicting bodily harm regardless of the intent, morality, or ideology of anyone who yields it.
    Exactly! So why make laws against them? Laws should be against people, not objects.

    Quote Originally Posted by aberrant85 View Post
    1. All laws but a burden on citizens to abide by them. Ignorance is not an excuse for breaking the law, nor is pointing out that people will break the law by itself a reason to drop the law.
    But a law that is useless and interfere's with a Right should be dropped. I'm no pot lover (exact opposite actually)...but even I think that it should be legalized....and it's not even a Right!

    Quote Originally Posted by aberrant85 View Post
    2. Where criminals get their guns is not a simple answer. They can get them from a black market, or they can simply walk into a gun store with a person with a clean record and have them by one. This is called a "straw purchase." Licensed dealers can also sell them to criminals under the table.
    There shouldn't even BE a black market for something that is considered a Right to have. But yes, you are correct, there are many ways in which to get a gun...legal or not.

    Quote Originally Posted by aberrant85 View Post
    A complicated issue does not deserve a simple, pat answer. It deserves debate and compromise, and requires law abiding citizens to accept some necessary burdens to protect their rights if it can reasonably address the problem in a positive manner.
    Yes, it is a complicated issue that deserves a concerted effort from various angles. But gun control has proven to be just as futile as marijuana. Indeed banning any widely available, easy to get object has a history of being futile to control. Remember the history of Prohibition Era? Just another example...and alcohol isn't even slightly considered a right to have.

    As far as compromise goes...lots of compromise has happened. Everything from background checks to non-violent ex-cons not being allowed to purchase a gun. Just how much compromise do you expect people to do when everything that we have compromised on has proven to be non-effective? The only thing that is going to be effective is addressing the reasons that crimes happen and work on those and the people themselves. It is not a short term goal that must be looked at, but long term.

    I could give you a list of countries where gun control started out small and eventually turned into full out gun bans...and what happened after those gun bans. As the old saying goes...."Those that ignore history are doomed to repeat it." I do not wish history to be ignored. Compromise on objects is no longer an option.
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  6. #46
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    Re: Should Gun Violence be a Homeland Security Issue?

    What does homeland security, which was originally charged to homeland threat from abroad, have to do with local gun policy and especially homeland citizens rights?
    Quote Originally Posted by jet57 View Post
    If certain gun guys are insulted by that? Good, they should be ashamed: the rest of US are sick and tired of having our intelligence insulted[/i].



  7. #47
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    Re: Should Gun Violence be a Homeland Security Issue?

    Quote Originally Posted by aberrant85 View Post
    It's called a metonym: the substitution of a specific, closely related term to stand for the thing actually meant ("the crown" stands for the king). In this case the gun stands for the person that used the gun. I'm aware that guns don't grow cartoon arms and feet while we're no watching that lets them pull their own triggers, although that would liven up the discussion.

    And suicides still count towards the number of deaths caused by them.

    PPPPPP....PPPPPPPPPPPPPPPP...... (that's the sound of your fail bucket)

    The problem may not be you specifically but people who are on the side who want to stop gun violence often fall into the pathetic fallacy. They begin to think of the gun as an active agent at an emotional level and want to limit or ban it instead of looking at the person behind the gun and deal with the underlying causes for that. Of course that would be a might more difficult so they try to ban the gun.
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  8. #48
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    Re: Should Gun Violence be a Homeland Security Issue?

    Quote Originally Posted by aberrant85 View Post
    This is ridiculous. A gun is not just a projection of its owner's goodness or badness like a wand in Harry Potter. It is an indifferent object capable of inflicting bodily harm regardless of the intent, morality, or ideology of anyone who yields it.
    A gun and a wand are both tools that the possessor uses to enact their will. With a gun the purpose is to affect grave bodily harm to the extent that it it can and is expected to kill. It is of course the person using it that determines the morality or ideology (as you say) and that person may have an intent unless it was the result of an accident.

    I am not a grammar nazi and thus I would not comment normally but at the end of your quote instead of using "wields" you used "yields" and if would accept the yields as what was intended and correct the grammar I get ". . . of anyone who yields (to) it." I could assume that this was a Freudian slip and this would mean that you might have a subconscious belief that just having a gun would lead one to do things that one normally would not do. Just a point for self reflection.


    1. All laws but a burden on citizens to abide by them. Ignorance is not an excuse for breaking the law, nor is pointing out that people will break the law by itself a reason to drop the law.
    A law should not be a "burden". The purpose of having laws is to protect the rights of The People and to delineate the responsibilities of the same. In a sense having the Right to Bear Arms is a burden. Having to protect the property and one life as well the property and life of others is a cost of being a free people and of which their is no replacement possible. The police are not there to protect but to investigate violations of the law. Police have no obligation to protect period.

    2. Where criminals get their guns is not a simple answer. They can get them from a black market, or they can simply walk into a gun store with a person with a clean record and have them by one. This is called a "straw purchase." Licensed dealers can also sell them to criminals under the table.
    Criminals violate laws. Your examples are those of laws being violated. What would be needed is enforcing the laws and prosecuting those who violate them.

    The vast majority of guns are purchased legally and are used within the parameters of law thus not criminal. And also thus not an object to reduce gun violence.


    A complicated issue does not deserve a simple, pat answer.
    Yet banning guns would qualify as a simple, pat answer. Also so would gun registration.


    It deserves debate and compromise
    Somethings cannot be subject to compromise the right to bear (personal) firearms either exists or it doesn't. If it can be restricted to any significant extent it is no longer a right and would then be subject to further dwindling of when and if you can do so.


    , and requires law abiding citizens to accept some necessary burdens to protect their rights
    Restricting the right to bear arms is not a reasonable nor necessary burden. The issue is not arms in general but specific types of people (criminals) who use them wrongly


    if it can reasonably address the problem in a positive manner.

    How criminals get guns: frontline: hot guns: "How Criminals Get Guns" | PBS
    Restrciting the right to bear arms would not lead to a positive outcome. Violent crimes would increase. The restricting of the right to bear arms is not a positive "manner" since it would require subjecting the citizenry to a second class status to those who would wield the authority to bear due to their position with the government.
    An Enlightened Master is ideal only if your goal is to become a Benighted Slave. -- Robert Anton Wilson

  9. #49
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    Re: Should Gun Violence be a Homeland Security Issue?

    anonymous polls suck big time. Gun ownership is increasing in the USA
    more guns now than anytime in history
    gun violence is going down. so why are liberals whining?



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    Re: Should Gun Violence be a Homeland Security Issue?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow Serious View Post
    instead of using "wields" you used "yields"
    Yep, "wields."

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow Serious View Post
    Somethings cannot be subject to compromise the right to bear (personal) firearms either exists or it doesn't. If it can be restricted to any significant extent it is no longer a right and would then be subject to further dwindling of when and if you can do so.
    You can't debate something when your position is it's not debatable. You're just shutting down the discussion.

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    Gun ownership is increasing in the USA
    more guns now than anytime in history
    More guns, less gun owners (by %).

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