why do you think MLK was killed ?

Smeagol said:

After doing some quick online verification, it looks like you're right; not based on review of the FBI files but on the testimony of his close associates.

People are people and MLK was just a man. I think he's a classic case of having done so much good [most of] society chooses to overlook his flaws, especially since he's now seen as a martyr by millions. I personally think his final speech was probably divinely inspired and prophetic. If you listen to his Mountain Top speech I think you can hear references to his imminent murder, a prophetic overview of the condition and progress of black Americans for the next 40 years with a lot of symbolism that points to an epidemic of black on black violent crime so severe that "a sneeze" during that time to come would completely destroy the black community, close friendships forged between blacks and whites especially among those in political spheres and the younger generation and ultimately something significant to happen in 40 years that was compared to the Children of Israel being in the wilderness for 40 years followed by entering the Promised Land but MLK would be allowed be there himself.

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I find it oddly amusing that he was killed while standing on a balcony sneaking a smoke. I guess they are right when they say cigarettes will kill you.

Note: (for any of you race baiters out there) I do not find it oddly amusing that he was killed. only the circumstances surrounding it.

Gimmesometruth said:

View attachment 67153308


Discrimination, Jobs, and Politics: The Struggle for Equal Employment ... - Paul Burstein - Google Books

Original Gallup questionnaire from 1963:
The Gallup Poll #674 (AIPO0674) - Questionnaire from June 1963

California results:
http://ucdata.berkeley.edu/pubs/CalPolls/432.pdf

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Please show me proof that the data you dug up indicates that the majority of all whites living in the United States were against equality for Blacks.

Show me the sampling area, the demographics of that area, and other details anyone familiar with polling and statictical analysis understand is important.

Thank you.

VanceMack said:

Racist hate filled white guy was racist and hate filled?

A more provocative question would be why was Malcom X killed?

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It was never determined who hired the guy. Terrible FBI investigation. Lots of unanswered questions.

ocean515 said:

Please show me proof that the data you dug up indicates that the majority of all whites living in the United States were against equality for Blacks.

Show me the sampling area, the demographics of that area, and other details anyone familiar with polling and statictical analysis understand is important.

Thank you.

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You are changing your requirement, I showed that a "large portion of all whites living in the United States did not support equality."

A "majority" (greater than 50%) of Whites did not support equal rights for Blacks prior and after the Civil War. A "large portion" (between 50% and 20%) of Whites did not support equal rights for Blacks in the 1960's.... as I have shown multiple times.

Stop moving your goalpost and accept the fact that it has only been recently that racist views have been isolated to a small portion of US Whites.

Gimmesometruth said:

You are changing your requirement, I showed that a "large portion of all whites living in the United States did not support equality."

A "majority" (greater than 50%) of Whites did not support equal rights for Blacks prior and after the Civil War. A "large portion" (between 50% and 20%) of Whites did not support equal rights for Blacks in the 1960's.... as I have shown multiple times.

Stop moving your goalpost and accept the fact that it has only been recently that racist views have been isolated to a small portion of US Whites.

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I haven't moved the goal post. I'm interested in keeping the information factual and not biased and manipulated, as your proving a want to do.

In fact, your own data indicated earlier in the selection that 90% of the public in the Pacific Region in 1964 were in favor of equal rights, 91% in the mid-Atlantic, 88% in the East North Central, 91% in New England, etc, etc,. Who do you think lived in those regions.

Spare me the lefts obsession to make out the majority of the white race as racists.

Aint the left that does that.

ocean515 said:

.

Spare me the lefts obsession to make out the majority of the white race as racists.

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Gimmesometruth said:

You are changing your requirement, I showed that a "large portion of all whites living in the United States did not support equality."

A "majority" (greater than 50%) of Whites did not support equal rights for Blacks prior and after the Civil War. A "large portion" (between 50% and 20%) of Whites did not support equal rights for Blacks in the 1960's.... as I have shown multiple times.

Stop moving your goalpost and accept the fact that it has only been recently that racist views have been isolated to a small portion of US Whites.

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all you showed that was a "large portion" of the people who responded to the poll did not support equal rights back in the 60s

mak2 said:

Aint the left that does that.

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So it's just a select few. Thanks for confirming that much.

ocean515 said:

I haven't moved the goal post. I'm interested in keeping the information factual and not biased and manipulated, as your proving a want to do.

In fact, your own data indicated earlier in the selection that 90% of the public in the Pacific Region in 1964 were in favor of equal rights, 91% in the mid-Atlantic, 88% in the East North Central, 91% in New England, etc, etc,. Who do you think lived in those regions.

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Once again, you are changing the goal post, the previous goal post was "equality" for blacks. I showed that the US population was not in favor of the fed govt enforcing equal access to public accommodations, ie private businesses that serve the public at large could discriminate based on race. Restaurants, theaters, etc could not serve customers on the basis of race.

What you found was data on Equal Employment Opportunity, ie whether a business should be able to discriminate on hiring based on race. This is the other side of the coin, the public felt that you should not be able to discriminate against a person based on race on his being able to earn a dollar......but as I showed, how (where) a person is able to spend that dollar was still a matter where discrimination could occur.

When anyone says "equality", it should be in every aspect of how one lives, not just a certain aspect.

Spare me the lefts obsession to make out the majority of the white race as racists.

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Again, the same straw argument you made previously, I never claimed "majority", I countered your claim that "large portions" were not racists. They are when they did not believe in "all" equality.

OscarB63 said:

all you showed that was a "large portion" of the people who responded to the poll did not support equal rights back in the 60s

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Precisely, it was to counter the previous claim:

ocean515 said:

It may or may not be accurate to suggest a large portion of whites living in the South did not support equality, but it's another thing to suggest a large portion of all whites living in the United States did not support equality.

That's rewritting history, and this issue has had more than enough of that done.

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Is the argument going to be that the polling done by Gallup and Harris on national levels did not accurately reflect the attitude of the country?

If that is the argument, then was the roughly 30% opposition to the Civil Rights Act in Congress also a "fluke"?

Gimmesometruth said:

Once again, you are changing the goal post, the previous goal post was "equality" for blacks. I showed that the US population was not in favor of the fed govt enforcing equal access to public accommodations, ie private businesses that serve the public at large could discriminate based on race. Restaurants, theaters, etc could not serve customers on the basis of race.

What you found was data on Equal Employment Opportunity, ie whether a business should be able to discriminate on hiring based on race. This is the other side of the coin, the public felt that you should not be able to discriminate against a person based on race on his being able to earn a dollar......but as I showed, how (where) a person is able to spend that dollar was still a matter where discrimination could occur.

When anyone says "equality", it should be in every aspect of how one lives, not just a certain aspect.

Again, the same straw argument you made previously, I never claimed "majority", I countered your claim that "large portions" were not racists. They are when they did not believe in "all" equality.

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What is apparent is that some people have a narrative they are obsessed with, and will ignore everything to cling to it.

Again, thank you for illustrating this fact quite succinctly.

ocean515 said:

What is apparent is that some people have a narrative they are obsessed with, and will ignore everything to cling to it.

Again, thank you for illustrating this fact quite succinctly.

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The fact remains that in the 1960s a LARGE PORTION of the US population did not believe in equal rights.

Apparently, some folks have an obsession in avoiding this inconvenient fact.

Gimmesometruth said:

The fact remains that in the 1960s a LARGE PORTION of the US population did not believe in equal rights.

Apparently, some folks have an obsession in avoiding this inconvenient fact.

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:lamo

Apparently, at least some people are unable to grasp the importance of specificity when attempting to make a point. Considering the topic, rational minds would understand how damaging generalizations can be.

The fact remains, a small percentage of the white population in the United States was opposed to equality for Blacks in the 1960's. The evidence you have supplied supports this fact.

Frankly, I'm really not enterested in observing any additional evidence of the racist bigotry that unfortunately still exists in the United States today.

Perhaps it's best to leave off here, rather than witness further evidence of this fact.

ocean515 said:

:lamo

Apparently, at least some people are unable to grasp the importance of specificity when attempting to make a point. Considering the topic, rational minds would understand how damaging generalizations can be.

The fact remains, a small percentage of the white population in the United States was opposed to equality for Blacks in the 1960's. The evidence you have supplied supports this fact.

Frankly, I'm really not enterested in observing any additional evidence of the racist bigotry that unfortunately still exists in the United States today.

Perhaps it's best to leave off here, rather than witness further evidence of this fact.

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I have no idea what your criteria is for " large portion", you did not object to my describing it as 50%-30%, and the data I provided shows this clearly....but I understand why you need to change data points, move goal posts, etc....it is due to your obsession to avoid changing your mind. You need to hold to the idea that large portions of the US population did not have racist views in the 1960's. The fact that you continue to want to avoid this evidence is proof of not wanting to face history.... reality.

Gimmesometruth said:

I have no idea what your criteria is for " large portion", you did not object to my describing it as 50%-30%, and the data I provided shows this clearly....but I understand why you need to change data points, move goal posts, etc....it is due to your obsession to avoid changing your mind. You need to hold to the idea that large portions of the US population did not have racist views in the 1960's. The fact that you continue to want to avoid this evidence is proof of not wanting to face history.... reality.

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As I wrote, I'm not interested in playing games with such an important issue. I'll leave that to the racist bigots who have become familiar sights on these threads.

ocean515 said:

As I wrote, I'm not interested in playing games with such an important issue. I'll leave that to the racist bigots who have become familiar sights on these threads.

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I'm not playing, and I am not in denial of the racism that existed.

DaveFagan said:

It was never determined who hired the guy. Terrible FBI investigation. Lots of unanswered questions.

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Well...Ray did claim it was Raul, or Ramone, after he had already confessed and run...but I tend to believe most conspiracy theories are just that.

Gimmesometruth said:

I'm not playing, and I am not in denial of the racism that existed.

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Nor am I. I just reject the attempt to re-write history. Perhaps it would be wise for some on the left to avoid doing so, especially when their own evidence condemns them.

Thanks for the effort.

He was killed because of his beliefs.

lolabird said:

He was killed because of his beliefs.

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He wasn't killed because of his beliefs he was killed because he and his views of racial equality were a threat to a way of life in 1960's America that many were unwilling to accept and some still are.

Ockham said:

He wasn't killed because of his beliefs he was killed because he and his views of racial equality were a threat to a way of life in 1960's America that many were unwilling to accept and some still are.

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Would you read back what you just posted and let me know the difference between his views and his beliefs?

lolabird said:

Would you read back what you just posted and let me know the difference between his views and his beliefs?

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I see them differently - his views were of racial equality. His beliefs were of a Christian God. In my opinion, beliefs shape views - but they are not the same. You might think that's silly but that's how I see it.

MaggieD said:

He was assassinated because he was a high-profile black man who fought for equality.

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I still get a shiver when I hear him speak. He was a great leader with a vision of equality that does not involve preferential treatment of any group. Too often today when we hear about a fight for "equality" what is really meant is preferential treatment. MLK spoke for true equality and called for the black community to achieve it by example, not handouts. I would suggest that the civil rights movement proposed by MLK is every bit as rejected by the black community as it is by anyone else, perhaps more so. Based on my customers and friends here in north Georgia many of the white people I know have every advantage I do, and yet many of them live in poverty while I own a business and will likely retire well by design. It is not because I am whiter, it is because I risked more and worked harder. The same applies to the black community. Clearly many have risen further (the President and Dr Ben Carson come immediately to mind) so it is possible. If equality was based simply on decree the black community would look exactly like any other community statistically. There is obviously something missing. Successful black individuals are often denigrated by their own community as sellouts or worse. Racism is alive and well in America, but more so within communities than from outside of them. Otherwise people like Carson would be embraced by their own. And yeah, I would definitely vote for Carson based on what I know about him. He is a smart and reasonable man who just happens to be black.

tech30528 said:

I still get a shiver when I hear him speak. He was a great leader with a vision of equality that does not involve preferential treatment of any group. Too often today when we hear about a fight for "equality" what is really meant is preferential treatment. MLK spoke for true equality and called for the black community to achieve it by example, not handouts. I would suggest that the civil rights movement proposed by MLK is every bit as rejected by the black community as it is by anyone else, perhaps more so. Based on my customers and friends here in north Georgia many of the white people I know have every advantage I do, and yet many of them live in poverty while I own a business and will likely retire well by design. It is not because I am whiter, it is because I risked more and worked harder. The same applies to the black community. Clearly many have risen further (the President and Dr Ben Carson come immediately to mind) so it is possible. If equality was based simply on decree the black community would look exactly like any other community statistically. There is obviously something missing. Successful black individuals are often denigrated by their own community as sellouts or worse. Racism is alive and well in America, but more so within communities than from outside of them. Otherwise people like Carson would be embraced by their own. And yeah, I would definitely vote for Carson based on what I know about him. He is a smart and reasonable man who just happens to be black.

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The bolded is the myth of MLK, not the reality. MLK spoke often of reparations, affirmative action and social justice (socialism?). Eveyone quotes the "I have a dream" speech and ignores the "Social Justice and the New Age" speech given 4 months after that.

Some not so often repeated MLK quotes for you to ponder:

A society that has done something special against the Negro for hundreds of years must now do something special for him, to equip him to compete on a just and equal basis.

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If a city has a 30% Negro population, then it is logical to assume that Negroes should have at least 30% of the jobs in any particular company, and jobs in all categories rather than only in menial areas.

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You can't talk about solving the economic problem of the Negro without talking about billions of dollars. You can't talk about ending the slums without first saying profit must be taken out of slums. You're really tampering and getting on dangerous ground because you are messing with folk then. You are messing with captains of industry… Now this means that we are treading in difficult water, because it really means that we are saying that something is wrong…with capitalism… There must be a better distribution of wealth and maybe America must move toward a Democratic Socialism.

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Myths of Martin Luther King –

Reporter: "Do you feel it's fair to request a multi-billion dollar program of preferential treatment for the Negro, or any other minority?"

Dr. King: "I do indeed...Within common law, we have ample precedents for special compensatory programs. ... America adopted a policy of special treatment for her millions of veterans...They could negotiate loans from banks to launch businesses. They could receive special points to place them ahead in competition for civil service jobs...There was no appreciable resentment of the preferential treatment being given to the special group."

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The Forgotten Teachings of Martin Luther King - by Paul Rockwell / Human & Civil Rights /In Motion Magazine

Call it democracy, or call it democratic socialism, but there must be a better distribution of wealth within this country for all God’s children.

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The labor movement was the principal force that transformed misery and despair into hope and progress. Out of its bold struggles, economic and social reform gave birth to unemployment insurance, old-age pensions, government relief for the destitute and, above all, new wage levels that meant not mere survival but a tolerable life. The captains of industry did not lead this transformation; they resisted it until they were overcome. When in the thirties the wave of union organization crested over the nation, it carried to secure shores not only itself but the whole society.

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While we are mindful of the shocking fact that less than one-half of all non-white workers are covered by the Fair Labor Standards Act, we do not speak for Negro workers only. A living wage should be the right of all working Americans, and this is what we wish to urge upon our Congressmen and Senators as they now prepare to deal with this legislation.

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Martin Luther King, Jr. - Wikiquote.

ttwtt78640 said:

The bolded is the myth of MLK, not the reality. MLK spoke often of reparations, affirmative action and social justice (socialism?). Eveyone quotes the "I have a dream" speech and ignores the "Social Justice and the New Age" speech given 4 months after that.

Some not so often repeated MLK quotes for you to ponder:







Myths of Martin Luther King –



The Forgotten Teachings of Martin Luther King - by Paul Rockwell / Human & Civil Rights /In Motion Magazine







Martin Luther King, Jr. - Wikiquote.

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Well it turns out I know less about him than I thought I did. I suppose in this case we have a few things to disagree about. Based on what YOU understand (in an effort to not have to research his life's work) how far did MLK think these reparations should go, and for how long? We have affirmative action in the workplace and in schools, we have a welfare system that favors minorities, we even have a Congressional Black Caucus. So how far (in MLK's estimation) far enough? And what kind of effort on the part of the black community is acceptable? The I Have a Dream speech clearly stated that we (they? All of us?) should do the best we can do at whatever station of life we achieved. Would you consider that a prerequisite?

I would suggest that programs designed to enhance personal ambition would require ambition to begin with. Not to say there is none, but how much is enough to "deserve" for lack of a better word, a hand up?