View Poll Results: Who should has the job of World Police?

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44. You may not vote on this poll
  • America is the world's remaining superpower. It's our job.

    8 18.18%
  • Let Russia become the new world police

    1 2.27%
  • China as the most people so it should be their job

    1 2.27%
  • Regional associations deal with regional matters; the Arab League, NAFTA, NATO.

    8 18.18%
  • The UN with its own standing military, of which America also subjected to.

    8 18.18%
  • Other

    18 40.91%
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Thread: Superpower: its a tough job but somebody's got to do it.

  1. #51
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    Re: Superpower: its a tough job but somebody's got to do it.

    I am going to skip items 1 – 3 because they are opinion and I can’t argue with opinion, everyone is entitled to theirs. IMO none of your opinions is worth a single American life. Now if YOU want to go fight for these “ideals” I have no problem with that. Gather up all like minded and willing fellow Americans, organize a volunteer militia force, and go fight to your hearts content. We even have a precedent in the Spanish Civil War. Let’s just hope your “allies” in Syria don’t shoot you in the back simply for being Americans.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sherman123 View Post
    4. I think calling it ethnocentric is more racist than actually being a proponent of it. Liberty is not an American value, it is one commonly shared by mankind. Likewise democracy is not uniquely American, it is something desired by most all humans on this planet. There are inflections, cultural adjustments, and the like but the clarion call is clear.
    Ethnocentrism is the belief one’s culture is superior to all others. That’s exactly what you are displaying. Democracy is not a new idea, it’s been around for nearly 4,000 years. Strangely it hasn’t seem to have taken until fairly recently, and even OUR government is not a true “democracy.”

    It is NOT desired by “most all humans,” since many cultures have a sincere faith in monarchies, theocracies, socialist republics, even tribalism to name a few. I’m sure they could all be indoctrinated into a form of democracy, but the reverse is just as true.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sherman123 View Post
    5. I do not think it was the example of the US that led to the collapse of the USSR, this is romanticism. Of course our existence is essential in posing an alternative model to people across the globe but it is not enough. What if Gorbachev had sent troops into Poland instead of leaving the Polish Communist Party to its fate? What if the troops that were dispatched to the Baltic States never left? As for the Shah what if the Iranian military had not deserted? Then the crowds would have been butchered, the prisons filled, and again autocracy would have won the day…It was not destiny that the Soviet Union found its grave in 1991 else how has North Korea endured? Popular will sometimes triumphs, sometimes it is crushed with overwhelming force. Being a symbol doesn't stop that from happening.
    It is enough. Had Gorbachov ordered the troops into Poland, they would have gone and crushed the Polish reforms just like they did in each case during the 1950’s. The whole effort would have collapsed and we would still be facing the U.S.S.R. today. The difference between Russia and North Korea? North Korea is truly a totalitarian state, the people literally have no access to Western ideals it is so like George Orwell’s 1984 there.

    Russian’s could see, and were allowed to be exposed, to Western consumerism; and they wanted more. Gorbachev and his followers allowed this, and he is the true hero of the revolution.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sherman123 View Post
    6. I understand that but the essential point is that I don't care. Of course I wouldn't appreciate it. I'm sure those alive during the Cold War didn't appreciate the efforts of the Soviet Union to spread it's influence and form of government. But that's the point. You are not a passive player in the world, and I've picked my side. What do I think of fascistic thugs like Assad? Like Kim Jong Un? I'm uninterested in their political or ethical perspectives--I want them to perish.
    Of course you don’t care. It’s evident in your whole position. You are such a zealot you literally do not care about how many OTHER American lives you are willing to spend to achieve your personal ideals.

    Your “endless list” is B/S. The people of Kosovo were kicking butt without our help and so were the people of Libya; Saddam should have been erased during the FIRST war or more properly way back when before we were propping up his regime because he was fighting Iran. The more you name the more you typically find (with minor exceptions like Grenada) we not only screwed up big time, we either originated the problem or we made things worse.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sherman123 View Post
    Hope and people power can only topple a regime when the regime allows itself to be toppled and force is no longer an option. When it doesn't the blood flows in the streets and liberty dies.
    Untrue, as shown by Iran, Russia, India, South Africa, Cuba, Nicaragua, Argentina…hell MY list is truly “endless.” Note, they were not all “democratic” victories in the sense they followed our example of government, but they were all popular rebellions against controlling forms of government and the people decided what form the new government would take.


    The bottom line? if you want to go chasing windmills...be my guest. Don't foist your ideology onto the rest of us. We'll exercise our freedom to choose as well and then live with the consequences one issue at a time thank you very much.
    Last edited by Captain Adverse; 09-01-13 at 07:37 PM.
    If I stop responding it doesn't mean I've conceded the point or agree with you. It only means I've made my point and I don't mind you having the last word. Please wait a few minutes before "quoting" me. I often correct errors for a minute or two after I post before the final product is ready.

  2. #52
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    Re: Superpower: its a tough job but somebody's got to do it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gathomas88 View Post
    Unfortunately, "rights" don't have a single thing to do with it one way or the other.

    The simple fact of the matter is that someone is always going to be on top, and that this nation is always going to have the ability, and very likely the inclination, to exercise that power over others to some degree or another.

    Thankfully for the rest of the world, the US happens to be a rather subdued hegemon on the whole (at least in comparison to past global leaders like the Roman Empire, Spaniards, or USSR). However, we cannot really say for sure whether a world dominated by the Chinese or Russians would be similar in this regard.

    All things being equal, I'd simply rather not take the risk.

    We should attempt to remain the "sole" global superpower for as long as we are able.
    The argument isn't whether or not to retain superpower status; it is how to USE that status in the world at large.

    I believe that we should build strong alliances, and try to maintain friendly relations with both allies and other nations. I believe we should limit military intervention to self- defense, defense of allies, and any other treaty commitments we currently have or enter into.

    That we act with restraint rather than like a bully. Entice rather than threaten. Mediate rather than choose sides. Provide humanitarian aid equally to all suffering parties regardless of the side they represent (unless they are our declared enemies). Use embargoes and sanctions if necessary.

    But NEVER intervene militarily in the internal affairs of any sovereign nations unless we are at war with them. And I mean WAR as declared by Congress under our Constitutional separation of powers.
    If I stop responding it doesn't mean I've conceded the point or agree with you. It only means I've made my point and I don't mind you having the last word. Please wait a few minutes before "quoting" me. I often correct errors for a minute or two after I post before the final product is ready.

  3. #53
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    Re: Superpower: its a tough job but somebody's got to do it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Adverse View Post
    I am going to skip items 1 – 3 because they are opinion and I can’t argue with opinion, everyone is entitled to theirs. IMO none of your opinions is worth a single American life. Now if YOU want to go fight for these “ideals” I have no problem with that. Gather up all like minded and willing fellow Americans, organize a volunteer militia force, and go fight to our hearts content. We have a precedent in the Spanish Civil War. Let’s just hope your “allies” in Syria don’t shoot you in the back simply for being Americans.



    Ethnocentrism is the belief one’s culture is superior to all others. That’s exactly what you are displaying. Democracy is not a new idea, it’s been around for nearly 5,000 years. Strangely it hasn’t seem to have taken until fairly recently, and even OUR government is not a true “democracy.”

    It is NOT desired by “most all humans,” since many cultures have a sincere faith in monarchies, theocracies, socialist republics, even tribalism to name a few. I’m sure they could all be indoctrinated into a form of democracy, but the reverse is just as true.



    It is enough. Had Gorbachov ordered the troops into Poland, they would have gone and crushed the Polish reforms just like they did in each case during the 1950’s. The whole effort would have collapsed and we would still be facing the U.S.S.R. today. The difference between Russia and North Korea? North Korea is truly a totalitarian state, the people literally have no access to Western ideals it is so like George Orwell’s 1984 there.
    Russian’s could see, and were allowed to be exposed to Western consumerism, and they wanted more. Gorbachev and his followers allowed this, and he is the true hero of the revolution.



    Of course you don’t care. It’s evident in your whole position. You are such a zealot you literally do not care about how many OTHER American lives you are willing to spend to achieve your personal ideals.

    Your “endless list” is B/S. The people of Kosovo were kicking butt without our help and so were the people of Libya; Saddam should have been erased during the FIRST war or more properly way back when before we were propping up his regime because he was fighting Iran. The more you name the more you typically find (with minor exceptions like Grenada) we not only screwed up big time, we either originated the problem or we made things worse.



    Untrue, as shown by Iran, Russia, India, South Africa, Cuba, Nicaragua, Argentina…hell MY list is truly “endless.” Note, they were not all “democratic” victories in the sense they followed our example of government, but they were all popular rebellions against controlling forms of government and the people decided what form the new government would take.


    The bottom line? if you want to go chasing windmills...be my guest. Don't foist your ideology onto the rest of us. We'll exercise our freedom to choose as well and then live with the consequences one issue at a time thank you very much.
    1. If that's how you want to use ethnocentric I don't mind the appellation. Any group of people or country that opposes liberty and rule of the people is my enemy, luckily they tend to not predominate. Though I think it is incredibly humorous that you'd use the Spanish Civil War as a solid example considering the fact that the Republicans decisively lost the war and only the strong intervention from a Western democracy would have prevented the triumph of the Nationalists.

    2. Even if we are just talking about raw number it is desired by the majority of people from India to Europe to Brazil. More importantly is that it is broadly desired by the majority of people on this earth whether in Iran, China or Saudi Arabia as evidenced by uprisings, political movements, and the like.

    3. Then you understand my point. The Soviet Union did not need to collapse in 1989 if the decision to use force had been made the autumn of nations would never have occurred. Force is always the specter that could suppress any revolution.

    4. There is nothing wrong with being zealous for liberty, democracy, and global peace.

    5. The KLA was being savaged and that is what prompted the intervention. Benghazi was on the verge of being besieged and sacked by Gaddafi's troops when the first Western planes hit the country. It was only with our support that these revolutions were successful. Likewise with so many others.

    6. All of those examples prove my point. How were they carried off? They succeeded because the regimes either refused or were unable to utilize force. Whenever a government or dictatorship is able to mobilize violence against the people it invariably succeeds or is forces the revolution to become violent if it is to survive. Force is necessary for those circumstances (and when the opportunity arises) where the people are unable to overthrow their government--which is frequently.

  4. #54
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    Re: Superpower: its a tough job but somebody's got to do it.

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    Ending bloodshed in the middle east and Africa is mission impossible.
    I think the Middle East is a hopeless case. I'm more hopeful Africa will become more civilized. Nevertheless, getting out f the Middle East and ending our necessity of entanglement in all of their junk will coincide with a significant number of cars on the roads that require no gasoline. Give it up for Tesla Motors, the Nisan Leaf, the Chevy Volt and Spark and all the r&d going on right now improving the existing technology for better less expensive batteries and lightweight super-strong materials for car bodies. I happen to have full confidence in American innovation and ingenuity. I honesty do not get people who think America's ability to one up with something better is "unrealistic."
    Having opinions all over the map is a good sign of a person capable of autonomous thinking. Felix -2011

  5. #55
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    Re: Superpower: its a tough job but somebody's got to do it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Adverse View Post
    The argument isn't whether or not to retain superpower status; it is how to USE that status in the world at large.

    I believe that we should build strong alliances, and try to maintain friendly relations with both allies and other nations. I believe we should limit military intervention to self- defense, defense of allies, and any other treaty commitments we currently have or enter into.

    That we act with restraint rather than like a bully. Entice rather than threaten. Mediate rather than choose sides. Provide humanitarian aid equally to all suffering parties regardless of the side they represent (unless they are our declared enemies). Use embargoes and sanctions if necessary.

    But NEVER intervene militarily in the internal affairs of any sovereign nations unless we are at war with them. And I mean WAR as declared by Congress under our Constitutional separation of powers.
    I agree to a certain extent. Unnecessary wars are expensive and impractical. They can also have a tendency to sap a nation's military strength and international standing over time.

    That being said, however; total military non-intervention is never going to be a feasible possibility for a superpower with international interests to defend. Regardless of how noble the intentions behind them may happen to be, the simple fact of the matter is that most of our competitors are not going to limit themselves to "playing by the rules" you've established. As such, it doesn't do us any good to limit ourselves either.

    I have absolutely no problem with the more "covert" forms of interventionism embraced by the United States during the Cold War, for instance, as they were absolutely necessary to ensure our security at the time. The Communists were using any and all means available to them to try and spread their international influence, and it was necessary that we curtail this advance if we were going to survive on any long term basis.

    Trusting the Soviets and their allies to avoid meddling in the affairs of the developing world would've been folly at best, and blatantly disastrous at worst.

    Frankly, the same is true of Russia and China today. Relying upon mankind's "better nature" to solve problems tends to be a less than effective strategy even at the best of times. It is absolutely preposterous when used regarding matters of defense, international relations, or game theory.

    On the international stage, we are all ultimately either predators or prey. Even when we do abide by one another, it is only because there is something to be gained from it that could not be reliably taken by force.
    Last edited by Gathomas88; 09-01-13 at 08:26 PM.

  6. #56
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    Re: Superpower: its a tough job but somebody's got to do it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Smeagol View Post
    I think the Middle East is a hopeless case. I'm more hopeful Africa will become more civilized. Nevertheless, getting out f the Middle East and ending our necessity of entanglement in all of their junk will coincide with a significant number of cars on the roads that require no gasoline. Give it up for Tesla Motors, the Nisan Leaf, the Chevy Volt and Spark and all the r&d going on right now improving the existing technology for better less expensive batteries and lightweight super-strong materials for car bodies. I happen to have full confidence in American innovation and ingenuity. I honesty do not get people who think America's ability to one up with something better is "unrealistic."
    It is also not unrealistic to think that more use of domestic (and Canadian) shale oil/gas (from fracking) cannot replace the 40% of our oil now obtained from OPEC.

    Institute for Energy Research | Petroleum (Oil)
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

  7. #57
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    Re: Superpower: its a tough job but somebody's got to do it.

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    It is also not unrealistic to think that more use of domestic (and Canadian) shale oil/gas (from fracking) cannot replace the 40% of our oil now obtained from OPEC.

    Institute for Energy Research | Petroleum (Oil)
    Exactly. We have vast amounts of alternate energy resources available HERE in territory we control. Our Oil industry simply does not want to expend much invetment capital to exploit them until it has to, since they already have a well-developed system with the Middle East suppliers. I think they may have been buying up likely resource areas though to prevent anyone else from exploiting them before THEY are ready to.

    I believe it should be a priority one national goal to get out from under foreign oil dependency ASAP.
    If I stop responding it doesn't mean I've conceded the point or agree with you. It only means I've made my point and I don't mind you having the last word. Please wait a few minutes before "quoting" me. I often correct errors for a minute or two after I post before the final product is ready.

  8. #58
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    Re: Superpower: its a tough job but somebody's got to do it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Adverse View Post
    Exactly. We have vast amounts of alternate energy resources available HERE in territory we control. Our Oil industry simply does not want to expend much invetment capital to exploit them until it has to, since they already have a well-developed system with the Middle East suppliers. I think they may have been buying up likely resource areas though to prevent anyone else from exploiting them before THEY are ready to.

    I believe it should be a priority one national goal to get out from under foreign oil dependency ASAP.
    A lot of very rich folks disagree and have their own agendas, which then become our agenda due to their control of our congress critter's campaign cash.
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

  9. #59
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    Re: Superpower: its a tough job but somebody's got to do it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Adverse View Post
    Exactly. We have
    vast amounts of alternate energy resources available HERE
    in territory we control. Our Oil industry simply does not want to expend much invetment capital to exploit them until it has to, since they already have a well-developed system with the Middle East suppliers. I think they may have been
    buying up likely resource areas
    though to prevent anyone else from exploiting them before THEY are ready to.

    I believe it should be a priority one national goal to get out from under foreign oil dependency ASAP.
    such as .....

  10. #60
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    Re: Superpower: its a tough job but somebody's got to do it.

    Quote Originally Posted by bubbabgone View Post
    such as .....
    The first article is a July 2012 report of energy resources in the USA.

    Unleashing the North American Energy Colossus: Hydrocarbons Can Fuel Growth and Prosperity

    This is an article regarding oil industry investment in natural gas.

    Big Oil Companies Move Toward Natural Gas


    Like I said I "think" major oil companies are buying up likely resource areas, primarily because it is the smart thing to do. I suppose I could research each major oil company's annual report to find which ones might be doing so...but I am just too lazy.
    If I stop responding it doesn't mean I've conceded the point or agree with you. It only means I've made my point and I don't mind you having the last word. Please wait a few minutes before "quoting" me. I often correct errors for a minute or two after I post before the final product is ready.

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