View Poll Results: Who should has the job of World Police?

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44. You may not vote on this poll
  • America is the world's remaining superpower. It's our job.

    8 18.18%
  • Let Russia become the new world police

    1 2.27%
  • China as the most people so it should be their job

    1 2.27%
  • Regional associations deal with regional matters; the Arab League, NAFTA, NATO.

    8 18.18%
  • The UN with its own standing military, of which America also subjected to.

    8 18.18%
  • Other

    18 40.91%
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Thread: Superpower: its a tough job but somebody's got to do it.

  1. #41
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    Re: Superpower: its a tough job but somebody's got to do it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    None of the above. We should act when our own vital national interests are at stake, and otherwise let the rest of the world take care of itself.


    **** with us, we'll smash you to dust; leave us alone, we'll return the favor.
    Good afternoon, Goshin.

    : History proves that with all the great civilizations that have come and gone...Egypt and Rome being examples. They bankrupted themselves waging wars, and look at where they are today. They remain great tourist destinations, but that is only so we can view the magnificence they once were, as shown by the pyramids, cathedrals, and aqueducts they built which we can see today. Sad... :

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    Re: Superpower: its a tough job but somebody's got to do it.

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    So assinating foreign head's of state is technically wrong but helping others to do so (think Libya) is cool.? Is it OK if China and Russia do this too, since they are "superpowers" as well?
    No but again being realistic. I think there has been a history of America "coincidentally" dropping bombs near heads of state. If Assad is "accidentally" hit, I can't imagine that not resulting in an end to the bloodshed. In fact, I'm pretty much expecting Assad to either be killed in the US attack or his location damaged just enough to cause injury and be takes into custody by the opposition. Just watch.
    Having opinions all over the map is a good sign of a person capable of autonomous thinking. Felix -2011

  3. #43
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    Re: Superpower: its a tough job but somebody's got to do it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Smeagol View Post
    No but again being realistic. I think there has been a history of America "coincidentally" dropping bombs near heads of state. If Assad is "accidentally" hit, I can't imagine that not resulting in an end to the bloodshed. In fact, I'm pretty much expecting Assad to either be killed in the US attack or his location damaged just enough to cause injury and be takes into custody by the opposition. Just watch.
    Ending bloodshed in the middle east and Africa is mission impossible.
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

  4. #44
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    Re: Superpower: its a tough job but somebody's got to do it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Smeagol View Post
    Good points and not what I meant to imply.

    Don't get me wrong, I'd much rather not see America in this situation but I'm just being realistic in my opinion, with respect to our economy needing the maximum level of stability in the Middle East with the most friends due to the importance oil has over our way of life. If North Korea or the Congo killed 1300 of their own citizens with chemical bombs I'd be willing to be our involvement would be limited to voting for a UN resolution condemning the tyrants. Why? North Korea and the Congo don't have any oil nor are they in the neighborhood with other countries that have oil where instability could spread. This is what we have when we let one commodity own our economic viability and refuse to support getting other options to the place of viability.
    Good afternoon, Sméagol.

    Didn't Clinton pass on Rwanda? I remember the pictures showing starving dying children, but I guess that's life. Maybe if oil is discovered in Rwanda, their importance to us will change? "Think of the children" doesn't always apply, does it? :

  5. #45
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    Re: Superpower: its a tough job but somebody's got to do it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sherman123 View Post
    1. It isn't a false dilemma because I was responding to a particular poster who made a statement for which my reply was entirely applicable.
    I read the post you responded to before I made my comment about yours. You did create a false dilemma when you stated "Congo implausible, Syria plausible." Why not the Congo if Syria? What makes Syrian intervention more plausible? Neither situation justifies military intervention, however you just assert one has greater actual value than the other for whatever reasons.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sherman123 View Post
    2. I find non-interventionism to be fool hardy and morally distasteful.
    Where do I advocate pure "non-interventionism?" I am willing to intervene militarily when one of our allies is attacked or threatened. That does not mean I support military intervention in the internal affairs of a sovereign nation any more than I would allow another country to intervene militarily in OUR internal affairs.

    I have yet to hear a proper justification for your idea that "What’s good for the goose is NOT good for the gander" when it comes to intervention. The argument always seems to be “we are strongest and hold the moral right, therefore we can intervene.” Yet unless you would be willing to allow a more powerful nation to intervene militarily in American internal affairs in support of their ideology, you are preaching hypocrisy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sherman123 View Post
    3. If we only go to places that have "something we want" why did we go to Bosnia? Kosovo? Haiti? Somalia? Hell why Syria? Clearly we are not a kleptocratic leviathan or we'd surely select some better targets.
    We were never IN Bosnia. NATO supported two UN resolutions regarding maritime traffic and no fly zones. Our actions were under treaty obligations and consisted of air and naval units. Kosovo was also a NATO mission, the USA is a treaty member of NATO and we honor our treaty obligations. Haiti?? That was humanitarian disaster assistance, which I advocate and support. Somalia? We initially sent troops in to help with humanitarian relief for a population facing starvation caused by drought; the troops were there to protect American relief workers. Of course they were attacked and we got stuck in the mess.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sherman123 View Post
    4. I disagree. I think we do have a corner on the proper form of government. I find that notion that others do not desire democracy to be more racist than claiming that Chinese or Iranian citizens are desirous of a more republican form of government.
    Very noble, and very ethnocentric. In any case, if a people WANT something, they eventually get it. We don’t need to impose it on them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sherman123 View Post
    5. False. Good ideas and people power do not bring down autocracies. All it would have taken to prevent the collapse of the Mubarak regime would have been a government as ruthless as the one in Tehran or Damascus. The ability to deploy violence and the willingness to do so can perpetuate these dictatorships ad nausum. The collapse of the Soviet Union was in large part brought about because of the pressures exerted by the United States and her allies across the globe, but even then the possibility that violence would have saved the regime was absolutely present. It is why a strong democratic power, the United States, is essential in bringing about a better world.
    Umm, I think not. I disagree with your opinion about the fall of the U.S.S.R. entirely. I think it was the EXAMPLE of the USA that eventually led to the popular fall of that government, not any "pressures" we brought to bear militarily. The same is true of Iran under the Shah, he was ruthless but he still fell to a popular rebellion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sherman123 View Post
    6. I find the Chinese and Russian system of government to be repugnant and their governments to be moreso. I am not a relativist, I do not care about the equivalence of what a Chinese authoritarian thinks vs. what I think. I'm in this to win.
    It does not matter what you find, they exist in fact. The issue was, if THEY had the power and we did not, how would you feel about their interference. Apparently, you would not be happy or appreciate it. Again, it is utter hubris to think our lifestyle is automatically the best for every culture or society in the world. Still, if it is, they will come to it themselves eventually. People have to make the choice and the effort themselves. We cannot impose it from outside.
    If I stop responding it doesn't mean I've conceded the point or agree with you. It only means I've made my point and I don't mind you having the last word. Please wait a few minutes before "quoting" me. I often correct errors for a minute or two after I post before the final product is ready.

  6. #46
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    Re: Superpower: its a tough job but somebody's got to do it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Adverse View Post
    I read the post you responded to before I made my comment about yours. You did create a false dilemma when you stated "Congo implausible, Syria plausible." Why not the Congo if Syria? What makes Syrian intervention more plausible? Neither situation justifies military intervention, however you just assert one has greater actual value than the other for whatever reasons.



    Where do I advocate pure "non-interventionism?" I am willing to intervene militarily when one of our allies is attacked or threatened. That does not mean I support military intervention in the internal affairs of a sovereign nation any more than I would allow another country to intervene militarily in OUR internal affairs.

    I have yet to hear a proper justification for your idea that "What’s good for the goose is NOT good for the gander" when it comes to intervention. The argument always seems to be “we are strongest and hold the moral right, therefore we can intervene.” Yet unless you would be willing to allow a more powerful nation to intervene militarily in American internal affairs in support of their ideology, you are preaching hypocrisy.



    We were never IN Bosnia. NATO supported two UN resolutions regarding maritime traffic and no fly zones. Our actions were under treaty obligations and consisted of air and naval units. Kosovo was also a NATO mission, the USA is a treaty member of NATO and we honor our treaty obligations. Haiti?? That was humanitarian disaster assistance, which I advocate and support. Somalia? We initially sent troops in to help with humanitarian relief for a population facing starvation caused by drought; the troops were there to protect American relief workers. Of course they were attacked and we got stuck in the mess.



    Very noble, and very ethnocentric. In any case, if a people WANT something, they eventually get it. We don’t need to impose it on them.



    Umm, I think not. I disagree with your opinion about the fall of the U.S.S.R. entirely. I think it was the EXAMPLE of the USA that eventually led to the popular fall of that government, not any "pressures" we brought to bear militarily. The same is true of Iran under the Shah, he was ruthless but he still fell to a popular rebellion.



    It does not matter what you find, they exist in fact. The issue was, if THEY had the power and we did not, how would you feel about their interference. Apparently, you would not be happy or appreciate it. Again, it is utter hubris to think our lifestyle is automatically the best for every culture or society in the world. Still, if it is, they will come to it themselves eventually. People have to make the choice and the effort themselves. We cannot impose it from outside.
    1. I answered that and I'm very confused how you'd overlook that. It was a specific question and I gave a specific answer over several posts.

    2. I'm not a relativist. I believe we are right, that liberalism and democracy are the superior model for global governance and that democratic peace theory is true. I do not care whether or not a Chinese or Russian autocrat feels differently because they are my enemy.

    3. I'm not sure where you are getting your information. We were extremely involved in Bosnia and Operation Deny Flight and Deliberate Force were led by the United States. After the Dayton Accords we provided thousands of troops for IFOR. Likewise in Kosovo we intervened and deployed thousands of troops after we drove Serbian troops back. I could go on but all of the examples I cited are examples where US military force was applied for a particular humanitarian end. That they were cloaked in a NATO mission that we agitated for seems irrelevant. Unless your standard for a non-ethnocentric intervention is having a bunch of American and European allies voting in Brussels.

    4. I think calling it ethnocentric is more racist than actually being a proponent of it. Liberty is not an American value, it is one commonly shared by mankind. Likewise democracy is not uniquely American, it is something desired by most all humans on this planet. There are inflections, cultural adjustments, and the like but the clarion call is clear.

    5. I do not think it was the example of the US that led to the collapse of the USSR, this is romanticism. Of course our existence is essential in posing an alternative model to people across the globe but it is not enough. What if Gorbachev had sent troops into Poland instead of leaving the Polish Communist Party to its fate? What if the troops that were dispatched to the Baltic States never left? As for the Shah what if the Iranian military had not deserted? Then the crowds would have been butchered, the prisons filled, and again autocracy would have won the day. There are a million and one scenarios where force is applied and freedom is snuffed out. It was not destiny that the Soviet Union found its grave in 1991 else how has North Korea endured? Being a symbol is important, but so is being a force capable of containing and confronting these enemies. Popular will sometimes triumphs, sometimes it is crushed with overwhelming force. Being a symbol doesn't stop that from happening.

    6. I understand that but the essential point is that I don't care. Of course I wouldn't appreciate it. I'm sure those alive during the Cold War didn't appreciate the efforts of the Soviet Union to spread it's influence and form of government. But that's the point. You are not a passive player in the world, and I've picked my side. What do I think of fascistic thugs like Assad? Like Kim Jong Un? I'm uninterested in their political or ethical perspectives--I want them to perish.

    People do have to pick for themselves, but they need help doing so. The people of North Korea will never overthrow their slaveocracy from below. The people of Kurdistan would never have escaped the clutches of Saddam without the United States. The people of Kosovo would never have extricated themselves from the grips of Milosevic. The people of Libya from Gaddafi, and the list goes on and on.

    Hope and people power can only topple a regime when the regime allows itself to be toppled and force is no longer an option. When it doesn't the blood flows in the streets and liberty dies.

  7. #47
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    Re: Superpower: its a tough job but somebody's got to do it.

    Where would the US be right now without intervention?
    Quote Originally Posted by calamity View Post
    Reports indicate that everyone knew he was hauling a bunch of guns up there. But, since you brought it up, there's something which should be illegal: guns that breakdown.

  8. #48
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    Re: Superpower: its a tough job but somebody's got to do it.

    We ought to consider.....as a species.....the fact that technology has brought us closer to one another.

    A hundred years ago, it would have taken a month and a small fortune for Joe Sixpack to take a little vaca to China. Now....less than a day and less than a months wages.

    Fifty years ago, if I wanted to communicate with my friend Marwan in Lebanon.....I was writing a letter and waiting three weeks to hear back. Now, we talk live...with video.

    Thirty years from now........?

    We are all inhabiting this earth. We might consider tossing our #1 foam fingers.....in favor of a more thoughtful approach.

    Yeah....I know.....all the brown skin is scary! But we must make progress.
    How many sane, able-bodied, adult Americans have refused an available job in favor of living off of public assistance?

  9. #49
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    Re: Superpower: its a tough job but somebody's got to do it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Adverse View Post
    Excuse me, but where is the "NO ONE" option? In my opinion NO ONE has the right to be the "world's policeman." Since OTHER is a B/S choice, and none of the rest qualify, I did not vote.
    Unfortunately, "rights" don't have a single thing to do with it one way or the other.

    The simple fact of the matter is that someone is always going to be on top, and that this nation is always going to have the ability, and very likely the inclination, to exercise that power over others to some degree or another.

    Thankfully for the rest of the world, the US happens to be a rather subdued hegemon on the whole (at least in comparison to past global leaders like the Roman Empire, Spaniards, or USSR). However, we cannot really say for sure whether a world dominated by the Chinese or Russians would be similar in this regard.

    All things being equal, I'd simply rather not take the risk.

    We should attempt to remain the "sole" global superpower for as long as we are able.
    Last edited by Gathomas88; 09-01-13 at 07:18 PM.

  10. #50
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    Re: Superpower: its a tough job but somebody's got to do it.

    Quote Originally Posted by polgara View Post
    Good afternoon, Sméagol.

    Didn't Clinton pass on Rwanda? I remember the pictures showing starving dying children, but I guess that's life. Maybe if oil is discovered in Rwanda, their importance to us will change? "Think of the children" doesn't always apply, does it? :
    Bingo. Add the Sudan, North Korea, the Congo. No oil in the region = no vital intest.
    Having opinions all over the map is a good sign of a person capable of autonomous thinking. Felix -2011

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