View Poll Results: Who should has the job of World Police?

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  • America is the world's remaining superpower. It's our job.

    8 18.18%
  • Let Russia become the new world police

    1 2.27%
  • China as the most people so it should be their job

    1 2.27%
  • Regional associations deal with regional matters; the Arab League, NAFTA, NATO.

    8 18.18%
  • The UN with its own standing military, of which America also subjected to.

    8 18.18%
  • Other

    18 40.91%
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Thread: Superpower: its a tough job but somebody's got to do it.

  1. #131
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    Re: Superpower: its a tough job but somebody's got to do it.

    Quote Originally Posted by DDD View Post
    Yet they did and you feel fooled that there was no ethnic cleansing? The sites that have evidenced ethnic cleansing conducted on Albanians is too graphic and not allowed to be shown as per rules of DP. But here is a less graphical one:

    Ethnic Cleansing in Kosovo: An Accounting

    See numbers like above 6000 massively murdered and put in mass graves. Happy now?
    Thousands more of Serbs were killed. And Sebs and Gypsies were driven away by the KLA.

  2. #132
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    Re: Superpower: its a tough job but somebody's got to do it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Helix View Post
    my opinion :

    we cover the Americas, China deals with Asia, and Saudi Arabia handles the Middle East. we maintain our alliance with Israel.

    if we're to be global cop, there needs to be a global tax to pay for it. even if there were, though, i still wouldn't support it.

    also, any police action needs to be met with wartime tax rates at home. we can't afford to put another one on the credit card, and also, shared sacrifice. all tax brackets should go up significantly until the mission is complete.
    I disagree completely. I don't want to be the world's police, especially if it's going to cost ME more money in taxes. My government is the most irresponsible entity when it comes to handling money, and I am taxed QUITE enough already thank you.

  3. #133
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    Re: Superpower: its a tough job but somebody's got to do it.

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisL View Post
    I disagree completely. I don't want to be the world's police, especially if it's going to cost ME more money in taxes. My government is the most irresponsible entity when it comes to handling money, and I am taxed QUITE enough already thank you.
    I'm absolutely against being the world's police force, too. Perhaps confiscatory tax rates will lower public appetite for war.

  4. #134
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    Re: Superpower: its a tough job but somebody's got to do it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Helix View Post
    I'm absolutely against being the world's police force, too. Perhaps confiscatory tax rates will lower public appetite for war.
    Perhaps. That's actually pretty sly.

  5. #135
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    Re: Superpower: its a tough job but somebody's got to do it.

    Quote Originally Posted by DDD View Post
    What if sometime while trying to make Africans more civilized we realize that they tend to worship the prehistoric times?
    All the Africans I've met be they black, white or of Asian descent all are on a mission to make Americans think Africa is just as modern as the west and the bush people are only a small subculture similar to our Amish. Of course, I think they are a bit behind in terms of modernization but they don't want us to think that. Its a big pride issue for them for the rest of the world and especially Americans to know they have cell phones, the Internet, cable/satellite TV, cars, highways, shopping malls and air-conditioning. They do not worship tend to worship the prehistoric times from my interactions but embrace modernity and want us to know it.
    Having opinions all over the map is a good sign of a person capable of autonomous thinking. Felix -2011

  6. #136
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    Re: Superpower: its a tough job but somebody's got to do it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Adverse View Post
    Good to know..which means that despite our "interests" we have no right to control it or to try to destablize an unfriendly government in order to try to control it. That means we just sail around instead. Why? Because we can without war or bullying, as you so nicely pointed out in your other segmented replies.
    So you reject your earlier statement that the U.S. should pursue her interests, in favor of the new claim that the U.S. should instead pursue a path of avoiding conflict?

    Is "sail around it" your answer to the Strait of Hormuz as well?

    Sorry, don't generalize or twist my words. I have made it very clear when military intervention is acceptable...simply because it might make things "easier" for us or "more profitable" does not constitute my support for a war.
    You suggested we pursue our interests, and do so with allies. If you wish to put a caveat on that of "unless it means that we may risk getting into a war over those interests", then you need to make that explicit.

    Thats a circular world policeman argument that I don't buy. "The oceans are free because WE keep them free, and we keep them free because the oceans ARE free."
    Not at all. Shipping lanes are free because we keep them that way, and we do so because it is in our best interest to do so. It is an incredible public good provided by the U.S. because we net-benefit from it.

    Sorry, did you miss the part about "act of war?" Chinese or Iranian naval action (i.e. military action of national forces like the act Obama contemplates in Syria) is an act of war. Piracy is reserved for "independent" gangs of individuals.
    Right. Except that you are the one who suggested that the threats to free-shipping lanes would come from pirates. The point I am making to you is, in the absence of a global hegemon that provides a security guarantee to global sea lanes, the world breaks back into local, regional hegemons in which each central power (in Asia that is China, in the Persian Gulf, Iran) extends control over the region and suffers no competitors. Except that these powers are not the liberals that we are - they are mercantilists. The Chinese leadership does not believe it is in its' best interest to maintain the Malaccan straits (should they get the ability to do so, which they would in the absence of a forward-deployed 7th Fleet) for the World Trade Organization and all its' member-states; they believe it would be in the best interest to control them for China.

    Nice try, but no. We don't keep the oceans free.
    Er, yes, we objectively do maintain that as a task for the United States Navy / Marine Corps. Having engaged in collection against the threat and then performed and supported these
    missions, I'm rather directly aware of them.

    Here is the worlds' shipping routes:



    You will notice there is significant overlap between major choke points (where the sea lanes concentrate) in the worlds' oceans and regional competitors in both the Pacific and the Persian Gulf, but no such overlap for the concentrations in the Carribbean or the Atlantic, where the dominant power is the U.S. and there are no nations seeking regional hegemony.

    Now here is the U.S. Naval Map from STRATFOR as of 29 August:



    Notice how we're poised to project power into those same concentrations? East Coast naval units don't deploy to patrol the English Channel, they deploy to the 5th Fleet out of Bahrain. West Coast naval units don't focus on Panama, they move to Japan, and then down through the South China Sea to Australia to maintain presence near the SCS Straits.

    They are free because they are simply too big to control (or patrol) and because any nation that tried would lose trade doing so.
    Why in the world would any nation that demonstrated an ability to increase the cost of other nations' shipping while decreasing its' own lose trade?

    The history of our sea-faring empires belie this claim - control of the worlds' key geography as relates to sea lanes has always enabled - not reduced - trade.

    If you mean they are free for US to go just about wherever we want because we currently have the biggest navy...that lasts only as long as we KEEP the biggest navy. Notice China is building up their navy there partner? I wonder how much longer we will have the biggest navy the way our economy is going....
    Well you are right to notice that the biggest threat to our own ability to project Naval power is our own fiscal profligacy.

    We have no moral high ground to act as the world's policeman.
    Sure we do. Of all the worlds' policemen and hegemons, we are the first to do so on behalf of providing a Global Public Good, rather than simply a narrow-self-interest that seeks relative advantage in a zero-sum game. When one recognizes that the alternatives are not "no one polices the world" or "the UN polices the world", but rather "China, Russia, and Iran police their regions of the world as the globe descends into another game of grab-what-you-can", the superiority of the American option becomes almost tautological.

    In fact, we have no moral high ground at all
    Then if that is the case - and nations do not attain nor ever have the moral high ground - then it is a useless measure, as it cannot ever be applied.

    we simply have the power currently to bully just about anyone we want
    And yet we do not do so. We do not colonize, we do not invade simply to show off our prowress, we do not massacres others for "The Glory Of [insert capital city or monarch here]". The United State has a very high threshold indeed on when to employ it's incredible might to serve its' interests; and when it does so, feels obliged to do so in a manner so as to at least somewhat benefit those upon whom it is acting. Which makes us rather different from empires of eras past, and is what gives us that "moral high ground" you derided a second ago.

    That's why Obama drew his "red line in the sand," because he thought Assad would never cross it. Now he's stuck between acting and maybe getting us into another little dirty war, or backing off and embarassing us internationally.
    the most important part of a threat is being willing to back it up. But refusing to back up the U.S. security guarantee is a sure loser, and will lead to more deaths and abuses, not fewer.

    If we didn't keep acting the bully, we would not be getting into such messes in the first place.
    Really. Please tell me what act of bullying on our part caused Syria to descend into civil war?

    And you'll have to forgive me if I look upon the statement "Saying 'Do not use chemical weapons against your own people' is a bullying act" with a rather jaundiced eye.

  7. #137
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    Re: Superpower: its a tough job but somebody's got to do it.

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    So you reject your earlier statement that the U.S. should pursue her interests, in favor of the new claim that the U.S. should instead pursue a path of avoiding conflict?
    I really don't appreciate people appending their slants on MY statements and then declaring these slants are now MY position. Nor do I accept the need to follow their fallacies down paths they wish me to trod. My position has been made perfectly clear; if you are confused by it simply follow the prior posts and read them for comprehension.

    The "Strait of Hormuz" is shared like the Straits of Malacca. That means no single nation bordering it has absolute control over it, and therefore exclusive claim to it. Now that's the last straw man argument I intend to reply to.

    Syria is involved in a civil war, that is none of our business. Like I've told everyone else, if YOU feel the need to fight for one side or the other feel free to gear up and GO there. You have my blessing. Sending American troops, or using American force in "air and missile strikes?" Nope, not without a clear declaration of war by Congress.
    If I stop responding it doesn't mean I've conceded the point or agree with you. It only means I've made my point and I don't mind you having the last word. Please wait a few minutes before "quoting" me. I often correct errors for a minute or two after I post before the final product is ready.

  8. #138
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    Re: Superpower: its a tough job but somebody's got to do it.

    Quote Originally Posted by polgara View Post
    Good afternoon, Goshin.

    : History proves that with all the great civilizations that have come and gone...Egypt and Rome being examples. They bankrupted themselves waging wars, and look at where they are today. They remain great tourist destinations, but that is only so we can view the magnificence they once were, as shown by the pyramids, cathedrals, and aqueducts they built which we can see today. Sad... :
    Once Obama threw Mubarak under the bus, Egypt is no longer a tourist destination for anyone from the western world.

  9. #139
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    Re: Superpower: its a tough job but somebody's got to do it.

    "World Police"?
    What hubris! World judge too, and jailer/executioner, no doubt.
    There's no policing involved. The US will do what it sees best for the US and any 'policing' aspect is the job of the spin-doctors.

  10. #140
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    Re: Superpower: its a tough job but somebody's got to do it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Smeagol View Post
    There's a lot of sentiment lately over scaling back America's role outside of our own borders. The position of "global beacon of democracy," "the world's only remaining superpower," etc., etc., comes with what some consider to be a duty to therest of the world that includes being the world's police in the most extreme cases of state sponsored terror. Some accept tgat we have that as part of who we are. Others think only if and when we get a consensus and cooperation from most other governments albeit with our leadership. Others still take the position that its not our concern when atrocities occur outside of the United States. Nature hates a vacuum however and if we turn our backs on the role of global peacekeepers I wonder is the isolationists has considered that and if so do they have a preference on how the world community should respond to atrocities.
    I voted America. What's in our general interest is usually what is in the general interest of the world. I know that sounds lame on the surface, but freedom of the seas, airways, resisting the proliferation of nuclear weapons, championing free markets, etc. is generally in the best interest of the world economies. The term, "world police" is really inaccurate because We actually don't get involved in most conflicts throughout the world as our libertarian brothers would believe. Generally,we only get involved in conflicts that effect our interests.

    So why us? We are the only major super power as you said. We have the ability. We have the collective conscience to help or try to do good (better than what China would do with such power). If not us, no one else would do it.

    I've been around the world, and I've seen the benefits of American influence. I can tell you it is overwhelmingly positive. Without it, again this sounds lame, there would be chaos.

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