View Poll Results: Who should has the job of World Police?

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  • America is the world's remaining superpower. It's our job.

    8 18.18%
  • Let Russia become the new world police

    1 2.27%
  • China as the most people so it should be their job

    1 2.27%
  • Regional associations deal with regional matters; the Arab League, NAFTA, NATO.

    8 18.18%
  • The UN with its own standing military, of which America also subjected to.

    8 18.18%
  • Other

    18 40.91%
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Thread: Superpower: its a tough job but somebody's got to do it.

  1. #111
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    Re: Superpower: its a tough job but somebody's got to do it.

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Because nature abhors a vacuum, and a world without a worlds' policeman is your neighborhood without police. The biggest, meanest gangs rule. Then they become the policement as far their power allows. The closest to "no one" is the "regional" option.

    And what if our own interests include ensuring that the Suez Canal, Malacan Straits, and Persian Gulf remain open to our shipping? What if our interests are to maintain our nice, first-world lifestyle that is utterly dependent upon global trade which is in turn utterly dependent upon the U.S. security guarantee?
    Hmm, who owns the Suez Canal? I believe that's part of Egyptian territory or am I mistaken? Is it the ONLY route to the Red Sea or the Mediterranean? Gee, I wonder how people got around before it was built... LOL So because we are a superpower we can decide what things in a sovereign foreign nation are OUR things to control?

    The Malaccan Straits is shared by two nations, but international law recognizes up to a 5 mile territorial limit for coastal waters. Should Malaysia and Indonesia ever unite, then the Straits would belong to a single nation and could be legally denied. If that, we'd just go around. Until then, like the Persian Gulf, it is open sea. Open seas are always free for all shipping. For any nation to prevent that is either an act of war or piracy...I have no problem defending our rights to sail the open seas.

    I think I've answered your "trade" question by my responses above.
    If I stop responding it doesn't mean I've conceded the point or agree with you. It only means I've made my point and I don't mind you having the last word. Please wait a few minutes before "quoting" me. I often correct errors for a minute or two after I post before the final product is ready.

  2. #112
    Renaissance Man
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    Re: Superpower: its a tough job but somebody's got to do it.

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    well hells bells- how many UN resolutions were there about Iraq? 23?
    Hells bells I didn't want us in Bosnia, Kosovo, or Somalia either... what can I say? I don't make foreign policy.
    If I stop responding it doesn't mean I've conceded the point or agree with you. It only means I've made my point and I don't mind you having the last word. Please wait a few minutes before "quoting" me. I often correct errors for a minute or two after I post before the final product is ready.

  3. #113
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    Re: Superpower: its a tough job but somebody's got to do it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Artevelde View Post
    No NATO member was under obligation to join in this campaign as it was outside the NATO area and outside the scope of the NATO Treaty.
    So what? it was a NATO action, we are treaty members. I didn't approve of it either...but I don't make foreign policy. If I did we wouldn't be intervening so much.
    If I stop responding it doesn't mean I've conceded the point or agree with you. It only means I've made my point and I don't mind you having the last word. Please wait a few minutes before "quoting" me. I often correct errors for a minute or two after I post before the final product is ready.

  4. #114
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    Re: Superpower: its a tough job but somebody's got to do it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Adverse View Post
    Hmm, who owns the Suez Canal? I believe that's part of Egyptian territory or am I mistaken?
    It is part of Egyptian territory and the second reason why we have so strongly supported the Egyptian military over the past few decades.

    Is it the ONLY route to the Red Sea or the Mediterranean?
    No. For example, you can also sail West and go around the southern tip of South America, across the Pacific Ocean (which covers 1/3 of the globe), and then through the Malaccan Straits and sail the Indian Ocean.

    It is, however, far and away the best and critical route which is why so much time and effort was expended building it.

    So because we are a superpower we can decide what things in a sovereign foreign nation are OUR things to control?
    You are the one who suggested we should look out for our interests. No fair getting upset when people point out to you that that is precisely what we are doing.

    The Malaccan Straits is shared by two nations, but international law recognizes up to a 5 mile territorial limit for coastal waters. Should Malaysia and Indonesia ever unite, then the Straits would belong to a single nation and could be legally denied
    or could be illegally (or legally) denied now.

    Until then, like the Persian Gulf, it is open sea. Open seas are always free for all shipping.
    That is correct. And they are that way because the U.S. Navy undergirds and enforces a system that says it is - it is a role we partly developed ourselves and partly picked up from the British.

    For any nation to prevent that is either an act of war or piracy...I have no problem defending our rights to sail the open seas.
    Fantastic. You should be aware that the "pirates" you will be dealing with will include among many others the nations of Iran and China.

    I think I've answered your "trade" question by my responses above.
    Yes. You have basically reaffirmed our current position.

  5. #115
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    Re: Superpower: its a tough job but somebody's got to do it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Adverse View Post
    So what? it was a NATO action, we are treaty members. I didn't approve of it either...but I don't make foreign policy. If I did we wouldn't be intervening so much.
    So there was no obligation for the US to intervene. It was a free choice. And in that particular case a wrong-headed one.

  6. #116
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    Re: Superpower: its a tough job but somebody's got to do it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Adverse View Post
    Hells bells I didn't want us in Bosnia, Kosovo, or Somalia either... what can I say? I don't make foreign policy.
    So did the UN resolution legitimize the NATO actions in Bosnia?

  7. #117
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    Re: Superpower: its a tough job but somebody's got to do it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Adverse View Post
    I never said you didn't have a right to your opinion, did I? We have a saying in the USA, maybe you've heard it? "Opinions are like (in polite terms) the anus, everyone has one."

    This was about what I considered your flippant, unsolicited response to an issue of major concern to my country and my fellow countrymen.

    Everyone demands that we step in and defend "democracy," or "morals," or "human rights;" yet whenever we do it ends up becoming a disaster for us. Our allies smile but treat us like a loose cannon, our enemies smile and try to figure out how to use it against us, and all the neutrals smile and think we are interfering bullies.

    Even the people who ask us for help are never satisfied; it's either not enough interference/aid or too much interference/aid. And EVERYONE hopes one day we'll fall on our self-rightious ass and maybe learn a little humility.

    Personally, I think we need to talk softly, talk softly some more, and keep being diplomatic until the only option left is to bring out the big stick and knock the other guy so deep into the dirt he will NEVER be a problem again.
    Great post! I think this describes how most American citizens feel about it in a nutshell.

  8. #118
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    Re: Superpower: its a tough job but somebody's got to do it.

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    So did the UN resolution legitimize the NATO actions in Bosnia?
    No, it didn't.

  9. #119
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    Re: Superpower: its a tough job but somebody's got to do it.

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    It is part of Egyptian territory and the second reason why we have so strongly supported the Egyptian military over the past few decades.
    Good to know..which means that despite our "interests" we have no right to control it or to try to destablize an unfriendly government in order to try to control it. That means we just sail around instead. Why? Because we can without war or bullying, as you so nicely pointed out in your other segmented replies.

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    You are the one who suggested we should look out for our interests. No fair getting upset when people point out to you that that is precisely what we are doing.
    Sorry, don't generalize or twist my words. I have made it very clear when military intervention is acceptable...simply because it might make things "easier" for us or "more profitable" does not constitute my support for a war. For your kind of logic talk to Big Oil and corporate interests like Haliburton.

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    That is correct. And they are that way because the U.S. Navy undergirds and enforces a system that says it is - it is a role we partly developed ourselves and partly picked up from the British.
    Thats a circular world policeman argument that I don't buy. "The oceans are free because WE keep them free, and we keep them free because the oceans ARE free." LOL

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Fantastic. You should be aware that the "pirates" you will be dealing with will include among many others the nations of Iran and China.
    Sorry, did you miss the part about "act of war?" Chinese or Iranian naval action (i.e. military action of national forces like the act Obama contemplates in Syria) is an act of war. Piracy is reserved for "independent" gangs of individuals.

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Yes. You have basically reaffirmed our current position.
    Nice try, but no. We don't keep the oceans free. They are free because they are simply too big to control (or patrol) and because any nation that tried would lose trade doing so. If you mean they are free for US to go just about wherever we want because we currently have the biggest navy...that lasts only as long as we KEEP the biggest navy. Notice China is building up their navy there partner? I wonder how much longer we will have the biggest navy the way our economy is going....

    We have no moral high ground to act as the world's policeman. In fact, we have no moral high ground at all, we simply have the power currently to bully just about anyone we want. That's why Obama drew his "red line in the sand," because he thought Assad would never cross it. Now he's stuck between acting and maybe getting us into another little dirty war, or backing off and embarassing us internationally.

    If we didn't keep acting the bully, we would not be getting into such messes in the first place.
    If I stop responding it doesn't mean I've conceded the point or agree with you. It only means I've made my point and I don't mind you having the last word. Please wait a few minutes before "quoting" me. I often correct errors for a minute or two after I post before the final product is ready.

  10. #120
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    Re: Superpower: its a tough job but somebody's got to do it.

    Quote Originally Posted by KevinKohler View Post
    Tell that to the iPhone making Chinese who now have a much more viable means of putting food on their tables.
    Some of them. Why not do something about your incredible prison and spy systems or the third-world standard of your poor before attacking other countries if you believe your masters give a twopenny whatsit for ordinary people?

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