commiting suicide ?

found an article about it

Although some people who commit suicide have an identifiable mental health problem, like depression or addiction, others don’t. Some talk about wanting or planning to kill themselves or give other hints, others don’t. As my colleague Annmarie Dadoly wrote in this blog last year, many suicides are impulsive acts, with the decision to do it being made just minutes or hours before that act.

What prompts a person to take his or her life? No one really knows—experts never get to talk to people who have committed suicide. They can only talk to those who are contemplating suicide or who survive it. By definition, that is a different group.

Every suicide, like every person, is different. Many are sparked by intense feelings of anger, despair, hopelessness, or panic. Things that can put an individual at a higher risk for suicide in the short term include:

an episode of depression, psychosis, or anxiety
a significant loss, such as the death of a partner or the loss of a job
a personal crisis or life stress, especially one that increases a sense of isolation or leads to a loss of self-esteem, such as a breakup or divorce
loss of social support, for example, because of a move or when a close friend relocates
an illness or medication that triggers a change in mood
exposure to the suicidal behaviors of others, such as friends, peers, or celebrities.


Suicide often not preceded by warnings - Harvard Health Publications

Neomalthusian said:

Don't take this as disagreement, but under what circumstances should a loved one intervene and pursue psychiatric treatment, vs. simply respect the wish of the loved one?

What about if the person who is being told about a person's suicidal intentions is NOT a loved one, but a random stranger, a police officer, a health care provider, et cetera... what should they be expected to do? A good example might be: if a person shows up of their own volition to an emergency room and says "I came here because I want to kill myself," what should happen next?

It is easy to declare people as having an absolute right to decide the terms of their own lives (I agree, after all), but that doesn't really identify what people are supposed to do in response to people going out of their way to advertise it.

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I do think such circumstances exist, and while I err on the side of granting when it comes to the law since it is such a blind hammer, I certainly don't have a problem with people trying to help if they believe their loved one wants to die due to solvable mental health problems.

However, it really has to come from that place: wanting to help THEM, not trying to cojole and shame them and make it all about you. That's our responsibility with people we love -- to not make it about us.

If a person wishes to obtain means of suicide or euthanasia, I think they should go through a brief evaluation to rule out coercion or sudden onset psychosis. That's all.

DiAnna said:

That was cruel, vicious and beyond decency. If you were capable of shame, you'd be profusely apologizing right now for this despicable statement.

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Sorry, but the shame falls on the person who commits suicide. They're the one being selfish by taking their life out of the lives of loved ones, especially if they are a parent.

Neomalthusian said:

Don't take this as disagreement, but under what circumstances should a loved one intervene and pursue psychiatric treatment, vs. simply respect the wish of the loved one?

What about if the person who is being told about a person's suicidal intentions is NOT a loved one, but a random stranger, a police officer, a health care provider, et cetera... what should they be expected to do? A good example might be: if a person shows up of their own volition to an emergency room and says "I came here because I want to kill myself," what should happen next?

It is easy to declare people as having an absolute right to decide the terms of their own lives (I agree, after all), but that doesn't really identify what people are supposed to do in response to people going out of their way to advertise it.

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If there's been an extended history of failed treatment, it's easier to conclude that trying to stop them is not helping them. We haven't reached the point that everyone with mental health issues can be cured or even moderately relieved. The problem with so many teenagers, a particularly at risk group, who feel there's no point in living is they've barely sought treatment, if at all. I definitely think with that age group it's appropriate to intervene, but with someone in their late 20s/30s etc, it becomes more of a gray area.

Mathematician said:

Sorry, but the shame falls on the person who commits suicide. They're the one being selfish by taking their life out of the lives of loved ones, especially if they are a parent.

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weakminded people should act like thickminded people

Neomalthusian said:

Don't take this as disagreement, but under what circumstances should a loved one intervene and pursue psychiatric treatment, vs. simply respect the wish of the loved one?

What about if the person who is being told about a person's suicidal intentions is NOT a loved one, but a random stranger, a police officer, a health care provider, et cetera... what should they be expected to do? A good example might be: if a person shows up of their own volition to an emergency room and says "I came here because I want to kill myself," what should happen next?

It is easy to declare people as having an absolute right to decide the terms of their own lives (I agree, after all), but that doesn't really identify what people are supposed to do in response to people going out of their way to advertise it.

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maybe empathic people should try to convince them to stop attempting to commit suicide

it is like first aid .not everybody can do it without having some basic knowledge about human

I could never commit suicide...It is against my faith as a Catholic and a mortal sin.

Jr High School was total hell for me and I thought about suicide more than once during that time. I never imagined how I would do it, thought, so I figure it was more of an escapist, shot in the arm pick me up, kind of thing than it was anything else.

Navy Pride said:

I could never commit suicide...It is against my faith as a Catholic and a mortal sin.

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Don't play all high and mighty NP.....there are plenty of things that you believe in that are against your faith as a Catholic and many mortal sins that you have engaged in....

Medusa said:

maybe empathic people should try to convince them to stop attempting to commit suicide

it is like first aid .not everybody can do it without having some basic knowledge about human

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Don't you suppose this has been (and is being) tried?

Neomalthusian said:

Don't you suppose this has been (and is being) tried?

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l hope

Juanita said:

There are medications for every level of depression..

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Medications do not work for everyone.

In many ways, psychiatry is still in its infancy. There are still many people we can't effectively treat with our presently available options.

Helix said:

some are born with a self destruct mechanism which can be almost insurmountable at times. the creative, tempestuous personality is especially vulnerable. all i will say is that i have a lot of empathy, and i think that it's absolutely a mistake. understanding this doesn't completely solve the problem, but it's insight that needs to be applied during all dark nights of the soul.

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I am like this, and I know lots of other people like this. I'm a writer, which seems to be one of the most afflicted types. No surprise, really; art and madness runs strong on both sides of my family.

However, I was granted a bit of genetic mercy: a good enough brain to see it.

The trick for me (and for some others I know) was really to boil down my social circle to only those who got hives at the mere thought of peer pressure and shaming, throw all of my assumptions about how we're "supposed" to do life out the window, and start from scratch. Just build my entire way of living from the ground up through trial and error.

It took a few years, and I'm still ceaselessly tinkering with the dials in some areas of life, but I think the inability to conform to "socially condoned" modes of living and interacting with others is a major factor for a lot of creative people with a penchant towards mental disorder.

Even a lot of "normal" people wither underneath the pressure, over the course of decades. A highly sensitive person just has no chance.

The degree of departure required is going to vary a lot from one person to the next, but I know a lot of people who have found at least some degree of relief this way.

SmokeAndMirrors said:

I am like this, and I know lots of other people like this. I'm a writer, which seems to be one of the most afflicted types. No surprise, really; art and madness runs strong on both sides of my family.

However, I was granted a bit of genetic mercy: a good enough brain to see it.

The trick for me (and for some others I know) was really to boil down my social circle to only those who got hives at the mere thought of peer pressure and shaming, throw all of my assumptions about how we're "supposed" to do life out the window, and start from scratch. Just build my entire way of living from the ground up through trial and error.

It took a few years, and I'm still ceaselessly tinkering with the dials in some areas of life, but I think the inability to conform to "socially condoned" modes of living and interacting with others is a major factor for a lot of creative people with a penchant towards mental disorder.

Even a lot of "normal" people wither underneath the pressure, over the course of decades. A highly sensitive person just has no chance.

The degree of departure required is going to vary a lot from one person to the next, but I know a lot of people who have found at least some degree of relief this way.

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quoted for truth.

SmokeAndMirrors said:

Even a lot of "normal" people wither underneath the pressure, over the course of decades. A highly sensitive person just has no chance.

The degree of departure required is going to vary a lot from one person to the next, but I know a lot of people who have found at least some degree of relief this way.

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I never had any issues until my late thirties, and when it first started being apparent that I was dealing with depression and/or anxiety, I was taken totally off-guard, never having experienced anything like this before. It took me about 12 years to learn what triggered it, how to handle it, and I found that I had to essentially change many of my views and ways of perceiving the world around me. I had to become much more flexible, much more understanding with myself, and stop fighting it, before it started to become manageable. I still tend to have issues during times of extreme emotional stress, but overall, my ability to cope is much better than it used to be. It doesn't frighten me anymore, the way it used to. I feel great empathy for those who cannot reach a level of understanding and tolerance for it, and it seems that there are many people who can't find that understanding. I think that for me, what helps is that I tend to be pretty highly emotional, but also have a decent balance of cognitive function, so that I can still think relatively clearly, and function at a normal level during those periods of instability. It certainly isn't easy, and there have been times when my strongest impulse was to withdraw from the world completely.

Mathematician said:

Sorry, but the shame falls on the person who commits suicide. They're the one being selfish by taking their life out of the lives of loved ones, especially if they are a parent.

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I understand where you are coming from, as there was once a time when I could not identify with the world of the depressed. That ended when I experienced a severe form of it myself, and then I knew what was really happening in the minds of those who reach that point of desperation. When someone reaches the depths of depression where they commit suicide, they are most likely not thinking rationally. That is easy to not understand, when all your life, you have functioned in a rational state of mind, and cannot see how anyone could ever reach that point. The "hell" is not where they go to after committing suicide- the hell is where they are mentally and emotionally at this point of desperation. It's easy to pass judgement on the actions of people when you cannot see the world from their point of view. IF it is some kind of mortal sin, as many seem to believe, then that is something that the individual and God will have to deal with at that point, and it's not a call that you or I can make.

lizzie said:

I never had any issues until my late thirties, and when it first started being apparent that I was dealing with depression and/or anxiety, I was taken totally off-guard, never having experienced anything like this before. It took me about 12 years to learn what triggered it, how to handle it, and I found that I had to essentially change many of my views and ways of perceiving the world around me. I had to become much more flexible, much more understanding with myself, and stop fighting it, before it started to become manageable. I still tend to have issues during times of extreme emotional stress, but overall, my ability to cope is much better than it used to be. It doesn't frighten me anymore, the way it used to. I feel great empathy for those who cannot reach a level of understanding and tolerance for it, and it seems that there are many people who can't find that understanding. I think that for me, what helps is that I tend to be pretty highly emotional, but also have a decent balance of cognitive function, so that I can still think relatively clearly, and function at a normal level during those periods of instability. It certainly isn't easy, and there have been times when my strongest impulse was to withdraw from the world completely.

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I tend to think of depression just like being psychotic, except the voices aren't perceptual -- they're thoughts instead.

That in mind, I think how well someone can adjust to the mindset of their depression depends on what it is "saying" to them.

The people who tend to lose their life to it are the people who have depression that says "Your existence is causing harm to the world." They see killing themselves as not just an end to their pain, but as a positive for everyone in their lives.

I'm lucky my depression never "said" that particular thing. Given how bad it could get in sheer depth, I don't know that I would have survived that.

As far as getting a higher tolerance for the norm of social interactions and living mandates... well, I am one of those people who is incapable of it, as far as I know. I tried for years before I gave up and concluded I would have to do something else. And I still try whenever the occasion arises, never to any degree of success. It's like I'm actually allergic to it.

But that normal world has some stuff I need in it too. In that way, I am pretty damn unlucky.

It's easier for people who don't mind living in the societal underbelly. They can just go do that. I'm not one such person.

I am enough a creature of both routine and need for accomplishment that I can't completely extricate myself from the normal world and just go live on one of the fringes full-time. I've got to straddle the fence somewhere.

I know a couple other people like me. None of them have succeeded. Either they drown in the fringe, usually just because they see no purpose in caring for themselves, or otherwise they collapse in the normal world, because the contact level with negative social modes is too high.

Several of them were also writers. I think it's that combination of a methodical nature, and an airy creative nature, that is necessary when you're basically doing art through a technical skill set. And I think this is why writers tend to be so afflicted.

I have never seen an example of someone like me developing a sustainable mode of living. And that is scary as hell. It makes me wonder if it's actually possible, or if I'm just SOL.

What I can tell you is that I haven't been truly depressed in several years, and while I have yet to get the balance completely right, I haven't fallen off the fence either.

It's a work in progress. And I won't know the answer to whether it's doable until I'm at the end of my life, and can look at whether or not I did it.

SmokeAndMirrors said:

As far as getting a higher tolerance for the norm of social interactions and living mandates... well, I am one of those people who is incapable of it, as far as I know. I tried for years before I gave up and concluded I would have to do something else. And I still try whenever the occasion arises, never to any degree of success. It's like I'm actually allergic to it.

But that normal world has some stuff I need in it too. In that way, I am pretty damn unlucky.

It's easier for people who don't mind living in the societal underbelly. They can just go do that. I'm not one such person.

I am enough a creature of both routine and need for accomplishment that I can't completely extricate myself from the normal world and just go live on one of the fringes full-time. I've got to straddle the fence somewhere.

I know a couple other people like me. None of them have succeeded. Either they drown in the fringe, usually just because they see no purpose in caring for themselves, or otherwise they collapse in the normal world, because the contact level with negative social modes is too high.

Several of them were also writers. I think it's that combination of a methodical nature, and an airy creative nature, that is necessary when you're basically doing art through a technical skill set. And I think this is why writers tend to be so afflicted.

I have never seen an example of someone like me developing a sustainable mode of living. And that is scary as hell. It makes me wonder if it's actually possible, or if I'm just SOL.

What I can tell you is that I haven't been truly depressed in several years, and while I have yet to get the balance completely right, I haven't fallen off the fence either.

It's a work in progress. And I won't know the answer to whether it's doable until I'm at the end of my life, and can look at whether or not I did it.

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What you're getting at reminds me of comments I've heard from ex cons, that we've basically criminalized mental illness. They tell stories of inmates who don't even realize they're in prison and some who are basically catatonic from depression. Whereas in the past, these people would be hospitalized, today when their support network (which is often basically nothing) falls apart, they have little recourse but to commit crime, beg, or attempt suicide. The sad thing is I don't know which outcome is worst.

chromium said:

What you're getting at reminds me of comments I've heard from ex cons, that we've basically criminalized mental illness. They tell stories of inmates who don't even realize they're in prison and some who are basically catatonic from depression. Whereas in the past, these people would be hospitalized, today when their support network (which is often basically nothing) falls apart, they have little recourse but to commit crime, beg, or attempt suicide. The sad thing is I don't know which outcome is worst.

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We criminalize behavior, not illness. The problem MAY be failure to recognize illness sometimes, but sadly people who break laws and are dangerous will be detained regardless -- there's basically no way around it.

a351 said:

Option 6. I usually tend to commit suicide.

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You must be a Voodoo King.

SmokeAndMirrors said:

I tend to think of depression just like being psychotic, except the voices aren't perceptual -- they're thoughts instead.

That in mind, I think how well someone can adjust to the mindset of their depression depends on what it is "saying" to them.

The people who tend to lose their life to it are the people who have depression that says "Your existence is causing harm to the world." They see killing themselves as not just an end to their pain, but as a positive for everyone in their lives.

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What mine said to me was, "you're a loser, and a piece of crap, and aren't worthy of having a good life". That is when the real battle began for me. Although cognitively I knew that was not the case, emotionally, it was. It took much time and patience to resolve that conflict within myself. I had to learn to accept what I saw as the serious flaws in myself, and not only to accept them, but to appreciate them for the positives they had to offer in my life as a whole. I still have a tendency to step back into that mindset from time to time, but overall, I have ceased to see things in such stark contrasts, and can see in various shades and hues, if that makes any sense.

Neomalthusian said:

We criminalize behavior, not illness. The problem MAY be failure to recognize illness sometimes, but sadly people who break laws and are dangerous will be detained regardless -- there's basically no way around it.

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There is a way around it. The way we go about it is crazy itself. The mentally ill need treatment *before* they get to the point where they're reduced to stealing/begging, and guess what, that cuts down on crime too! It's really pathetic that 2/3 of MI are never treated.

As someone who I believe is just on the cusp of coming out of a depression. (I am just beginning to be able to visualize my life as it currently is without a horrible hopeless feeling). I am finding this thread to be interesting, especially as I apply it to my experience.

So while unintentional, thank you everyone for that.

For me, my source of depression has to do with some experiences in my childhood that threw me off badly enough that I never developed emotionally in some aspects. I had the twin hells of fixing myself and being depressed. Something I recommend to no one. It is far from fun to have to deal with some rather extreme stress.

Right now, I am sitting at a labor day celebration, watching my kids sword fight, listening to a pretty good cover band, and waiting for fireworks. I am enjoying the hell out of the moment. Two weeks ago, I could be in the same situation and feel like ****. Today, I have a calendar full of things to do, all since thought of recently. I can imagine my future with some hope and joy. That feeling gets stronger daily. I have reconnected with parts of myself long since forgotten and fixed those broken pieces. Life is good.

Depression comes in many forms and from many sources. Fixing mine required a lot of work, but I have my new basis for motivation and its stronger as I used to rely on others for joy and fun. Now I do it on my own (it still feels weird, I admit).

Next week is a Linux user group meeting. Then its a monthly LARP meeting. Doing volunteer work at a local park and at church. Some other stuff. Thinking of doing cosplay.

I would say the biggest lesson for me is that depression hits when you are disconnected from what brings you joy. When that happens there is nothing to counteract stress and it puts you in danger of going down with the ship.

Everyone, please heed this advice. Find something that is totally yours in life and that brings you joy. I have the fortune of going to a church that always manages to give the perfect sermon for whatever I am facing that week. In this case, its the advice I just gave. Hang in to your passion, I didn't and it has taken me months to find new ones that work for me. Nobody should have to deal with that.

chromium said:

There is a way around it. The way we go about it is crazy itself. The mentally ill need treatment *before* they get to the point where they're reduced to stealing/begging, and guess what, that cuts down on crime too!

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I'm not sure access or even early access would solve a great number more of these cases. Access to treatment overall in this country is not in fact that bad, all things considered. What I meant by "no way around it" was that people who we know are currently imminently dangerous are likely to be detained by the mental health system if not the legal system.

It's really pathetic that 2/3 of MI are never treated.

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Would it still strike you as pathetic if, let's say, 2/3 of the mentally ill did not want treatment? It is not easy to justify mandatory treatment, and sometimes people with these problems wait a long time until a lot of damage is done in their lives before seeking help in good faith.

Neomalthusian said:

The mere expression of suicidality means the person is definitely not 100% serious,

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What a crock. My brother killed himself - he had told two people, both of which had the same attitude - that he wasn't serious. I hope they feel guilty for the rest of their lives.