• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Repeal obamacare completely

REPEAL OBAMACARE

  • Repeal immediately and completely. Repeal Medicare also.

    Votes: 4 8.3%

  • Repeal within 2 years. Repeal Medicare also.

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Repeal it and Medicare in whatever time it takes.

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Repeal it. Keep Medicare like it is

    Votes: 13 27.1%

  • Repeal only the individual mandate. Keep Medicare

    Votes: 2 4.2%

  • Keep the individual mandate. Repeal the rest and medicare also.

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Keep Obamacare like it is. I love it.

    Votes: 9 18.8%

  • Keep Obamacare, but NO care for non-citizens.

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Keep Obamacare, but NO care for illegal aliens.

    Votes: 3 6.3%

  • Other (specify)

    Votes: 17 35.4%
  • Total voters
    48
Painter said:
Maybe you are too young to remember...
But we heard all this before in the late 80's under Clinton when he first made employers pay for insurance.
I was a part time stock boy at the time. And not long after this happened, I was promoted to full time and given insurance.
Click to expand...

"in the late 80's under Clinton" ??? What planet was that?
 
Phys251 said:
I think it would be a good idea if we had an election over this issue.

Wait a minute--WE ALREADY DID. Obamacare won and is here to stay. Get over it already.
Click to expand...
In other words "Communism is here to stay. Get over it already."

I'm just not gonna do that, dude. ;)
 
Navy Pride said:
Obama care if enacted will bankrupt this country.
Click to expand...

Perhaps. ObamaCare is designed to fail, and when the fecal matter hits the fan the libs will blame the greedy private insurance companies and demand that the government take over health insurance with a single-payer plan. Then when that fails, they will double down and insist on the government taking over the delivery of health care itself. That will reduce us to the dependent status of an Indian reservation and we will be well on the way to the perfect liberal view of a three tiered society: shepherds to make the decisions, sheepdogs to enforce those decisions, and sheep to be sheared.
 
mpg said:
The key word there is "net".

http://www.cbo.gov/sites/default/files/cbofiles/attachments/03-13-Coverage Estimates.pdf

OK, so now we've gone from $176 billion/year to $108 billion/year. $108 billion is still almost 2x more than the repeal of the Bush tax cuts on the top bracket. They account for ~$55 billion/year if (a big if) they have no effect on the income of those people.

CBO | Budget Infographic - Revenues
Click to expand...

I still do not see the unknown variables reflected into the estimate.
But again, for the purpose of debate lets just assume they and you, are correct.

How much is an American life worth?
108,000,000,000.000 per year is what you say it will increase by.
And if it would save 45,000 American citizen's lives per year.
That makes an American's life worth 2,400,000.00
With about 100,000,000.00 Americans paying income tax each year, that makes an American life worth around 24 cents.

For 24 cents from each tax payer, we can prevent these 45,000 deaths each year.

Now I might not feel that everyone's life is worth 24 cents. But I would still pay it to save them.
 
Painter said:
I've yet to hear anyone put forth a number that represents the savings the entire system will experience once there are no longer unpaid bills.
Especially from the hospital side.

I have another for you too.
I had a $14,500 dollar surgery. But I was first billed $108,000 before my insurance negotiated the price down.
Now... if I had no insurance, $108.000.00 is what I would have owed.
When I did not pay, they would have written off the 108 thousand on their taxes.
Multiply that scenario times millions of cases and that is what is happening everywhere around the Nation.
Hospitals are faking their books. Not paying taxes. Showing loss on paper and money in their pocket.
There will also be a sudden and rather large tax revenue coming from hospitals once they no longer show these fake losses.
Hospitals will show the profit and then have to reduce their prices substantially, while also paying more taxes.
Click to expand...

If you had negotiated with the hospital and paid the bill directly, you could probably have gotten by with about $5,000 total for surgeon, anesthesiologist, hospital. The so-called "pre-insurance" number is just a puff piece to make it look like insurance is getting a good deal for you, but actually the insurance amount is drastically inflated over what you could negotiate for cash. Beware of "provider networks."
 
Diogenes said:
Perhaps. ObamaCare is designed to fail, and when the fecal matter hits the fan the libs will blame the greedy private insurance companies and demand that the government take over health insurance with a single-payer plan. Then when that fails, they will double down and insist on the government taking over the delivery of health care itself. That will reduce us to the dependent status of an Indian reservation and we will be well on the way to the perfect liberal view of a three tiered society: shepherds to make the decisions, sheepdogs to enforce those decisions, and sheep to be sheared.
Click to expand...

You just heard this. Because I was just watching Fox News and it is the brand new RW talking point. :)
Of course Fox could of got it from Rush yesterday and had a delay in putting out the new talking point.
 
Diogenes said:
If you had negotiated with the hospital and paid the bill directly, you could probably have gotten by with about $5,000 total for surgeon, anesthesiologist, hospital. The so-called "pre-insurance" number is just a puff piece to make it look like insurance is getting a good deal for you, but actually the insurance amount is drastically inflated over what you could negotiate for cash. Beware of "provider networks."
Click to expand...

I agree about the puff piece part.
But from my experience you can never negotiate with a hospital on your own without it affecting your credit.
They will agree to settle for less. But then on your credit report it says that you settled for less and this is a strike against you.
In the end, you are sacrificing something... the new house you want, or maybe even the ability to rent an apartment in a good neighborhood.
 
Painter said:
I still do not see the unknown variables reflected into the estimate.
But again, for the purpose of debate lets just assume they and you, are correct.

How much is an American life worth?
108,000,000,000.000 per year is what you say it will increase by.
And if it would save 45,000 American citizen's lives per year.
That makes an American's life worth 2,400,000.00
With about 100,000,000.00 Americans paying income tax each year, that makes an American life worth around 24 cents.

For 24 cents from each tax payer, we can prevent these 45,000 deaths each year.

Now I might not feel that everyone's life is worth 24 cents. But I would still pay it to save them.
Click to expand...
For starters, $2.4 million is a lot of money. If we were to say that each life is priceless, the speed limits on our roads would be around 5 MPH.

Secondly, now you're the one who's leaving things out. We've been focusing on uninsured people, but what about everyone else? For the vast majority of people in this country, the quality of care is quite high. That's largely because of our wealth which is largely because of avoiding things like Obamacare. For most of us, Obamacare won't have an immediate negative impact on the quality of our health care, and it probably won't cause a recession either, but the economy won't grow as fast as it would've without it. "It is a paradoxical truth that tax rates are too high and tax revenues are too low and the soundest way to raise the revenues in the long run is to cut the rates now ... Cutting taxes now is not to incur a budget deficit, but to achieve the more prosperous, expanding economy which can bring a budget surplus." - JFK
 
mpg said:
For starters, $2.4 million is a lot of money. If we were to say that each life is priceless, the speed limits on our roads would be around 5 MPH.

Secondly, now you're the one who's leaving things out. We've been focusing on uninsured people, but what about everyone else? For the vast majority of people in this country, the quality of care is quite high. That's largely because of our wealth which is largely because of avoiding things like Obamacare. For most of us, Obamacare won't have an immediate negative impact on the quality of our health care, and it probably won't cause a recession either, but the economy won't grow as fast as it would've without it. "It is a paradoxical truth that tax rates are too high and tax revenues are too low and the soundest way to raise the revenues in the long run is to cut the rates now ... Cutting taxes now is not to incur a budget deficit, but to achieve the more prosperous, expanding economy which can bring a budget surplus." - JFK
Click to expand...

This is the most honest and reasonable post I have read from a Right Winger on this issue.
I commend you for that.

I can only say that I simply disagree with you on the priority.
I place the lives of those too rich for medicaid and too poor for insurance ahead of my own extra luxuries.
If I only have to pay an extra 24 cents a year to save 45 thousand lives... I'd rather donate an extra 100 and let you keep your quarter.
 
Painter said:
You just heard this. Because I was just watching Fox News and it is the brand new RW talking point. :)
Of course Fox could of got it from Rush yesterday and had a delay in putting out the new talking point.
Click to expand...

Actually, it has been obvious for some time that ObamaCare was designed to fail. Harry Reid laid out the plot line when he announced that it is a step on the way to single payer. Please try to keep up.
 
There was no category for my vote, so I voted other. I don't LOVE it as it is, but it is a tremendous start in the right direction. What needs to be fixed? Repeal the stupid Republican "mandate" idea and replace it with a public option. THAT is the ACA that should have passed in the first place. It would have been much better without the failed Republican plan in it.
 
Painter said:
This is the most honest and reasonable post I have read from a Right Winger on this issue.
I commend you for that.
Click to expand...
I'm not that conservative on economic issues and I'm quite liberal on social issues. What made you think I was a right winger? The # of people who oppose Obamacare is significantly larger than the # of people who support it. It isn't just the right wing who opposes it.





Painter said:
I can only say that I simply disagree with you on the priority.
I place the lives of those too rich for medicaid and too poor for insurance ahead of my own extra luxuries.
If I only have to pay an extra 24 cents a year to save 45 thousand lives... I'd rather donate an extra 100 and let you keep your quarter.
Click to expand...
Is a family of four who makes $88k/year, really too poor to afford insurance? The average annual cost of health insurance is $9k/household. Obamacare is gonna push up that #, which is another thing that I don't like about it, and what about the individual mandate? The cons of Obamacare easily outweigh the pros.
 
I listened to that on Rush on my way back from Ohio on wednesday, almost word for word. Of course He is just an entertainer and none of them listen to him to find out what to think. Just sayin...
Painter said:
You just heard this. Because I was just watching Fox News and it is the brand new RW talking point. :)
Of course Fox could of got it from Rush yesterday and had a delay in putting out the new talking point.
Click to expand...
 
Dooble said:
In other words "Communism is here to stay. Get over it already."

I'm just not gonna do that, dude. ;)
Click to expand...

Feel free to use your First Amendment rights to speak for the loud minority. Which, if you recall, lost the election. :)
 
NIMBY said:
When I had a colon attack, I was in like flint, with my wife's BCBS.

Many of those waiting took up two full chairs when they sat down and had to turn sideways to pass through a door. And they so looked like TEAparty types.
Click to expand...

you mean like crack dealers and their whorish moms from the projects
 
ronpaulvoter said:
Are you in favor of destroying this monster before it gets out of hand?

Remember, the oppression begins next January. Are you ready for it????
Click to expand...

It won't be repealed. Under the Roberts Court, it is settled law. In addition, any attempt to defund Obamacare, using the debt ceiling as a hostage, or threatening to shut down the government. will end up destroying the Republican party, since a vast majority of people are now in favor of it. The more moderate faction of the Republican party sees this, and will undermine any attempt by the Tea Party faction to carry this out. Thus, any attempt at this will fail in the House.

Obamacare? It's a mixed bag. Having the Federal government dictate our health care is a repugnant idea, but what is the alternative? Emergency rooms? Do you have any idea how much THAT costs the taxpayers? At least, with the individual mandate, the taxpayers will be recovering some of what they lose when people go to emergency room, and then not pay for the visit.

Here is what I would like to see. What would YOU advocate as a replacement for Obamacare, would it be a better option, and how?
 
mak2 said:
So what do you want to do with our current monster? You know the one, it causes most of the bankruptcies in the US and delivers third world results. It has been out of hand for years. What do you wanna do with that one?
Click to expand...

while I agree the situation with healthcare in this country needs to be dealt with (both lack of care and cost inflation are very pressing issues), it shouldn't serve as justification for any random policy, especially one with numerous drawbacks like the ACA.
 
ACA is a step to UHC (I hope) and UHC is far from random.
Dr. Chuckles said:
while I agree the situation with healthcare in this country needs to be dealt with (both lack of care and cost inflation are very pressing issues), it shouldn't serve as justification for any random policy, especially one with numerous drawbacks like the ACA.
Click to expand...
 
Other, repeal Obamacare but reform medicare/medicaid. Currently under the rules the medicare/medicaid programs are running huge deficits, put in place accountability rules and offer better supplemental plans to take financial pressure off of the programs.
 
danarhea said:
Do you have any idea how much THAT costs the taxpayers? At least, with the individual mandate, the taxpayers will be recovering some of what they lose when people go to emergency room, and then not pay for the visit.

Here is what I would like to see. What would YOU advocate as a replacement for Obamacare, would it be a better option, and how?
Click to expand...

Actually i think current research indicates the public costs at the emergency room are not due to people who don't have health insurance, and the current use is only likely to increase under the ACA. This is because we have a lack of primary care physicians, and due to govt payment schemes, these physicians tend to turn down medicare and medicaid patients
 
mak2 said:
ACA is a step to UHC (I hope) and UHC is far from random.
Click to expand...

1) The policy was not passed nor designed in that way

2) Your "hope" (especially when it's based on campaigning) doesn't really justify passing or supporting shoddy policy
 
Dr. Chuckles said:
Actually i think current research indicates the public costs at the emergency room are not due to people who don't have health insurance, and the current use is only likely to increase under the ACA. This is because we have a lack of primary care physicians, and due to govt payment schemes, these physicians tend to turn down medicare and medicaid patients
Click to expand...

I don't agree with that assessment, but I appreciate the intelligent response. :)
 
danarhea said:
It won't be repealed. Under the Roberts Court, it is settled law. In addition, any attempt to defund Obamacare, using the debt ceiling as a hostage, or threatening to shut down the government. will end up destroying the Republican party, since a vast majority of people are now in favor of it. The more moderate faction of the Republican party sees this, and will undermine any attempt by the Tea Party faction to carry this out. Thus, any attempt at this will fail in the House.

Obamacare? It's a mixed bag. Having the Federal government dictate our health care is a repugnant idea, but what is the alternative? Emergency rooms? Do you have any idea how much THAT costs the taxpayers? At least, with the individual mandate, the taxpayers will be recovering some of what they lose when people go to emergency room, and then not pay for the visit.

Here is what I would like to see. What would YOU advocate as a replacement for Obamacare, would it be a better option, and how?
Click to expand...

Another reasonable Conservative.
You're a rare and dying breed.
But props to you!
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom