View Poll Results: Do you support the Death Penalty

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  • I support the Death Penalty

    38 42.70%
  • I Oppose the Death Penalty due to Principle

    27 30.34%
  • I Oppose the Death Penalty due to Practicality

    17 19.10%
  • Other

    7 7.87%
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Thread: Death Penalty in Theory

  1. #241
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    Re: Death Penalty in Theory

    Quote Originally Posted by RGacky3 View Post
    Given the number of re-offenders having visceral knowledge isn't really a detterent either.
    While I would agree that the way we structure most prison experiences detracts from its ability to serve as a deterrence to its' inmates, that is also a function of 1) the greater professionalization many criminals receive in prison and 2) the additional difficulties we have for integrating into society.

    Sorry I meant cops, cops on the street.
    Then we are speaking to much of the same thing. When punishment is swift, sure, and public, it serves as a deterrent. When it is delayed, unsure, and takes place out of sight, it is not. A cop on every corner signals that punishment will be the former rather than the latter, and so crime is reduced.

    Funny seeing a conservative defend the right of the State forcing the draft ... yet calling leftists Statists for supporting having more in the commons.
    Defense is a collective action issue and an issue of the commons. It is the primary reason that we have the State. I've noticed it's a common failure for those who have an unbounded vision in favor of the state to assume their opposition has an unbounded vision in the opposite direction (which is why some people so foolishly think that Somalia is a libertarian paradise, or the level of governance that libertarians want), but that is not the case. Where incentives align to create tragedies of the commons in manners that put at risk our rights [for example, the enforcement of contracts, protection of personal autonomy, defense, and pollution] , there the state rightfully exercises its' coercive power.

    A cop cannot kill to enforce the law, a cop can only kill to defend life.
    Also they are not criminals unless they go through the justice system. But I think the fundemental issue is this.
    For me institutions of law exist for the people, you seam to think it's vice versa.
    Then you are misreading me. We have institutions to protect the people. I am saying that the lives of the many innocents outweigh the lives of the few guilty.

  2. #242
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    Re: Death Penalty in Theory

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Justice implies that evidence has been weighed fairly and objectively ruled upon. It's not eye for an eye (which, BTW, was originally created to CURTAIL punishment for crime)
    Er, no. You are confusing "justice" with "probably a correct ruling".

    For example, if you were guilty of kidnapping, raping, and torturing 3 14 year old girls, and the court found you guilty, and then punished you by forcing you to say publicly that you were sorry, that would be an accurate sentence that wasn't connected to justice.

  3. #243
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    Re: Death Penalty in Theory

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Er, no. You are confusing "justice" with "probably a correct ruling".

    For example, if you were guilty of kidnapping, raping, and torturing 3 14 year old girls, and the court found you guilty, and then punished you by forcing you to say publicly that you were sorry, that would be an accurate sentence that wasn't connected to justice.
    That would be a form of justice. Appropriate application of State force in response to a fair and impartial trial where all evidence was allowed to be presented. I think some of you confuse justice with revenge.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

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    Re: Death Penalty in Theory

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    That would be a form of justice. Appropriate application of State force in response to a fair and impartial trial where all evidence was allowed to be presented. I think some of you confuse justice with revenge.
    No, we are stating that justice is an evening of the scales. Revenge is seeking to hurt someone else until you feel better. Justice involve having a punishment fit the crime. And no, having to publicly apologize for raping and torturing children is not "justice", nor a form of it. It may be a form of a "justice system", but one that is incompetent to the task set before it in that regard.

  5. #245
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    Re: Death Penalty in Theory

    I can offer no good evidence to support my view of being pro-capital punishment.

    All I got to say is hang those bastards high.

    It's GREAT to be me. --- "45% liberal/55% conservative"
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  6. #246
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    Re: Death Penalty in Theory

    The Death penalty is the government's ultimate expression of its monopoly on violence. I oppose the government's monopoly on violence therefore I oppose the death penalty.

  7. #247
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    Re: Death Penalty in Theory

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    No, we are stating that justice is an evening of the scales. Revenge is seeking to hurt someone else until you feel better. Justice involve having a punishment fit the crime. And no, having to publicly apologize for raping and torturing children is not "justice", nor a form of it. It may be a form of a "justice system", but one that is incompetent to the task set before it in that regard.
    Only because you wish to label it as such, appropriate use of government force is still LIMITED use of government force. And in justice where in the government is called down to exercise force against the rights of the individual, the manner and magnitude to that which it can be done is limited. And eye for an eye is not justice, it's purposeful revenge in today's day and age.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  8. #248
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    Re: Death Penalty in Theory

    Quote Originally Posted by Anagram View Post
    I used to be very pro-capital punishment. Lately though, I've been moving away from that position somewhat. In theory, I accept that the death penalty can be an appropriate punishment. If a mentally healthy person willfully takes the life of another, I see that as forfeiting their own right to life. However, in our practice I'm not sure I can support it. There is at the very least controversy over whether or not the cost of the capital case outweighs that of life in prison, with actual statistics being very hard to come by. There is also the trouble of exonerated death row inmates and wrongful executions. In my opinion the difference in punishment between death and life in prison is not worth the chance of wrongful execution, which seems to be significant. There is also the question of whether the death penalty is equally applied among everyone. Lastly, although I'm not sure I agree with this, some people have argued that the death penalty is not an equal response to murder, because death row inmates must spend years waiting and knowing that they are going to die. It is suggested this is a torture exceeding that which the convicted gave his or her victims. I think this is the weakest argument of them, but it may have some merit. In a perfect world where a 100% guilty person was immediately put to death, with the whole thing costing less than life in prison, I could easily support that, but in our real world I'm not sure anymore that capital punishment is practical.

    But I'm curious about how the people on DP feel about it. Especially to see if there are significant groups of people among those who oppose the death penalty who support the idea in theory, but not in reality and those who simply oppose the idea in principle.
    I also use to support the death penalty; now I cannot. I do believe that death is an appropriate sentence for some crimes, but I do not believe it should be implemented as a sentence. It has nothing to do with "right to life." I do not believe that a person who has (actually) committed a heinous murder has the right to life. I think society has the right to take his life for such an offense- however, I believe that we should not.

    First of all, the execution of even one innocent is unacceptable. Without an absolute guarantee of guilt (which I define as DNA evidence or an eyewitness combined with the confession of the defendant which has not been retracted), the risk of executing an innocent person far outweighs the benefit of executing a guilty person. In fact, it appears, based on statistics, that the death penalty does not serve as a deterrent. If it is not a deterrent, then there is no practical benefit to society for executing a person. Here's a link.

    https://www.dartmouth.edu/~chance/te...es/JLpaper.pdf

    If we accept the premise (at least until better research is conducted) that the death penalty does not deter people from committing capital murder, then the only arguments left to leave the death penalty in place are a) vengeful, or b) based on an idealistic demand for "justice," with no other punishment being acceptable or appropriate for heinously causing the death of another other than executing the offender (the "scales of justice").

    While I believe that some people truly deserve to be put to death for their actions, and I also believe that to some extent executing people does bring justice for the person who was heinously murdered, the consequences to society overweigh the scales. For us, as a people, to reduce ourselves to such idealism rather than taking a higher road is truly barbaric.

    If it were proven to me that the death penalty truly does deter such crimes, I would likely change my opinion. In such a case, there would be practical (rather than idealistic) benefits to society for conducting the executions.
    "We need to ask some very tough questions of the senator from Illinois. It's not enough to be black, it's not enough to be articulate, it's not enough to be eloquent and a media darling. The only question will be how deaf an ear, or how blind an eye will people turn in order to turn a frog into a prince." -Eddie Huff

  9. #249
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    Re: Death Penalty in Theory

    I totally support the death penalty... In this day and age of DNA it is almost impossible to execute and innocent and to say its not a deterrent is ridiculous because it sure deters the people who are executed.
    "God Bless Our Troops in Harms Way."

  10. #250
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    Re: Death Penalty in Theory

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    I totally support the death penalty... In this day and age of DNA it is almost impossible to execute and innocent and to say its not a deterrent is ridiculous because it sure deters the people who are executed.
    Using your logic, the death penalty and life in prison are equal in terms of deterrence. They serve the same purpose, and one is no better than the other.

    Also, your statement that it is nearly impossible to execute an innocent person in the "age of DNA" assumes that DNA is present as evidence in all death penalty cases. It is not.

    Additionally,

    DNA’s Dirty Little Secret - Michael Bobelian

    There have been many instances in which juries reached the wrong conclusion based on DNA evidence.
    "We need to ask some very tough questions of the senator from Illinois. It's not enough to be black, it's not enough to be articulate, it's not enough to be eloquent and a media darling. The only question will be how deaf an ear, or how blind an eye will people turn in order to turn a frog into a prince." -Eddie Huff

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