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Death Penalty in Theory

Do you support the Death Penalty

  • Total voters
    78
Cephus said:
Sure then do, there's all kinds of people who kill others in drive-by shootings, etc. In fact, I'd argue that there are a lot more ignorant people out there than there ought to be, given the level of education and science we have access to today.
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I never said that ignorant people no longer exist. I said that most of us are less ignorant, and we are due to better education, better understanding of others and more exposure to different people.
 
ChrisL said:
I never said that ignorant people no longer exist. I said that most of us are less ignorant, and we are due to better education, better understanding of others and more exposure to different people.
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I agree with you, I'm just pointing out that in the past, most people were ignorant because they had no choice, the information just wasn't widely available to not be ignorant. Today, when the information is known and widely available, there are plenty of people who are still ignorant, you just can't explain away the reasons for it. They are ignorant by choice, not by circumstance.
 
Cephus said:
I agree with you, I'm just pointing out that in the past, most people were ignorant because they had no choice, the information just wasn't widely available to not be ignorant. Today, when the information is known and widely available, there are plenty of people who are still ignorant, you just can't explain away the reasons for it. They are ignorant by choice, not by circumstance.
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I guess that would depend on which country a person might live. There are still places in the world that are uneducated and basically isolated from the rest of us.
 
ChrisL said:
I guess that would depend on which country a person might live. There are still places in the world that are uneducated and basically isolated from the rest of us.
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I'm talking about right here in the United States.
 
Cephus said:
I'm talking about right here in the United States.
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Sure, but some people just aren't very smart, or maybe they were raised by ignorant people, like racists or whatever.
 
ChrisL said:
Sure, but some people just aren't very smart, or maybe they were raised by ignorant people, like racists or whatever.
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Or they have idiotic beliefs and the like. The fact still remains that right here at home, there are tons of ignorant, stupid and otherwise idiotic people who have not benefited by modern education into becoming better people. In fact, I think there are plenty of them right here on these forums.
 
Cephus said:
Or they have idiotic beliefs and the like. The fact still remains that right here at home, there are tons of ignorant, stupid and otherwise idiotic people who have not benefited by modern education into becoming better people. In fact, I think there are plenty of them right here on these forums.
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Yes, I agree. People who only care about themselves are a good example of that.
 
ChrisL said:
Yes, I agree. People who only care about themselves are a good example of that.
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People need to be concerned about the overall state of the society and no society can survive if people are not held accountable for themselves and their actions. That's why we have a country where 47% of the people don't pay any federal income tax, why social security is bankrupt and why welfare is out of control.

Stop "feeling" and start thinking for once. Reacting emotionally doesn't actually produce any good results or solve any problems.
 
Cephus said:
People need to be concerned about the overall state of the society and no society can survive if people are not held accountable for themselves and their actions. That's why we have a country where 47% of the people don't pay any federal income tax, why social security is bankrupt and why welfare is out of control.

Stop "feeling" and start thinking for once. Reacting emotionally doesn't actually produce any good results or solve any problems.
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I disagree. I think our economy is hurting because of lack of jobs. It isn't because of the 4% of people who are collecting benefits. :roll:
 
What principle or practicality? Once their dead and cremated, they will never ever commit another crime or hurt another person. Only thing that needs to change is it should be something people will fear, it should be done publicly and school children should have to see it several times before becoming adults.
 
ChrisL said:
I disagree. I think our economy is hurting because of lack of jobs. It isn't because of the 4% of people who are collecting benefits. :roll:
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It's nowhere near 4% and it has nothing to do with the current recession.

30 million more Americans receive food stamps today than did in 1990.
3 million Americans received Social Security disability in 2000. Today it's 8.6 million.
Approximately 35% of the U.S. population gets some form of check from the government.
 
Cephus said:
It's nowhere near 4% and it has nothing to do with the current recession.

30 million more Americans receive food stamps today than did in 1990.
3 million Americans received Social Security disability in 2000. Today it's 8.6 million.
Approximately 35% of the U.S. population gets some form of check from the government.
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Stats from 2012 say 4.1%.

Welfare Statistics | Statistic Brain
 
Cephus said:
It's nowhere near 4% and it has nothing to do with the current recession.

30 million more Americans receive food stamps today than did in 1990.
3 million Americans received Social Security disability in 2000. Today it's 8.6 million.
Approximately 35% of the U.S. population gets some form of check from the government.
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Hey, check this out. This ought to make you really happy! :lol:

Top 10 Hourly Wage Equivalent Welfare States in U.S.
State Hourly Wage Equivalent
Hawaii $17.50
Alaska $15.48
Massachusetts $14.66
Connecticut $14.23
Washington, D.C. $13.99
New York $13.13
New Jersey $12.55
Rhode Island $12.55
California $11.59
Virginia $11.11
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WOW! Right?
 
ChrisL said:
Hey, check this out. This ought to make you really happy! :lol:
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All of which ought to go way, way, way down. Welfare ought to hurt. That's the only way people can be pushed to get off their asses and get to work.
 
Cephus said:
All of which ought to go way, way, way down. Welfare ought to hurt. That's the only way people can be pushed to get off their asses and get to work.
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I can't believe the equivalent is almost 20 dollars an hour in Hawaii. Of course that includes medical and food stamps, but still. That does sound like a lot for doing nothing.
 
ChrisL said:
I can't believe the equivalent is almost 20 dollars an hour in Hawaii. Of course that includes medical and food stamps, but still. That does sound like a lot for doing nothing.
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I'm sure it also includes housing assistance. I think it's absurd.
 
Cephus said:
It specifically tells you that they're only counting people on welfare, not on food stamps or any of the other government assistance programs. I'm counting everyone with their hand out.
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The next time someone tells me that entitlement programs can't be cut back on, I'm going to call BS. I'm stunned at the amount of benefits they get. That's really unbelievable that welfare recipients are getting more than a lot of people who work full time for their money. That's disgusting.
 
ChrisL said:
The next time someone tells me that entitlement programs can't be cut back on, I'm going to call BS. I'm stunned at the amount of benefits they get. That's really unbelievable that welfare recipients are getting more than a lot of people who work full time for their money. That's disgusting.
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$17.50 X 40 (hr work week)=$700/wk X 4 = about $2800/month. Military pay scale, http://www.dfas.mil/dms/dfas/militarymembers/pdf/MilPayTable2012/MilPayTable2012_1.pdf for 2012. A military person will have to be E-5 with over 8 years of service to earn what someone doing pretty much nothing at all will in Hawaii.

Army- E-5-- 15.5%, E-4 -23.8%, E-3--12.5%, E-2--6.2%, E-1--3.9% total percentage of the Army making less than welfare recipients in Hawaii, 61.9%
Air Force 20.7%, 15.1%, 15.6%, 3.0%, 3.2%, total making less 57.6%
Marines 13.2%, 15.9%, 26.3%, 11.1%, 7.4%, total 73.9%
Navy 20.6%, 16.9%, 14.5%, 6%, 3.1% total 61%
http://www.militaryonesource.mil/12038/MOS/Reports/Combined Final Demographics Report.pdf page 9

Average, app 63.6% of the active duty people defending and dying for this country make less than a person on welfare in Hawaii makes.


Now that is entirely disgusting.
 
DVSentinel said:
$17.50 X 40 (hr work week)=$700/wk X 4 = about $2800/month. Military pay scale, http://www.dfas.mil/dms/dfas/militarymembers/pdf/MilPayTable2012/MilPayTable2012_1.pdf for 2012. A military person will have to be E-5 with over 8 years of service to earn what someone doing pretty much nothing at all will in Hawaii.

Army- E-5-- 15.5%, E-4 -23.8%, E-3--12.5%, E-2--6.2%, E-1--3.9% total percentage of the Army making less than welfare recipients in Hawaii, 61.9%
Air Force 20.7%, 15.1%, 15.6%, 3.0%, 3.2%, total making less 57.6%
Marines 13.2%, 15.9%, 26.3%, 11.1%, 7.4%, total 73.9%
Navy 20.6%, 16.9%, 14.5%, 6%, 3.1% total 61%
http://www.militaryonesource.mil/12038/MOS/Reports/Combined Final Demographics Report.pdf page 9

Average, app 63.6% of the active duty people defending and dying for this country make less than a person on welfare in Hawaii makes.


Now that is entirely disgusting.
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It truly is. I don't know how expensive it is to live in Hawaii, but that sounds outrageous to me. Something needs to be done about this IMO.
 
On principle, I believe that a systematic method of the state killing a person is unethical.

I believe that it is better that 100 murderers walk free than to wrongfully execute an innocent person.

I understand that the practicality of executing a person as opposed to sentencing them to life without parole is long, cold, expensive, and difficult.

That said, I think the only cases that would merit execution are atrocities against humanity that reach a historic scale. The Nuremberg Trials, Osama Bin Laden, and not many other cases.
 
Anagram said:
I used to be very pro-capital punishment. Lately though, I've been moving away from that position somewhat. In theory, I accept that the death penalty can be an appropriate punishment. If a mentally healthy person willfully takes the life of another, I see that as forfeiting their own right to life. However, in our practice I'm not sure I can support it. There is at the very least controversy over whether or not the cost of the capital case outweighs that of life in prison, with actual statistics being very hard to come by. There is also the trouble of exonerated death row inmates and wrongful executions. In my opinion the difference in punishment between death and life in prison is not worth the chance of wrongful execution, which seems to be significant. There is also the question of whether the death penalty is equally applied among everyone. Lastly, although I'm not sure I agree with this, some people have argued that the death penalty is not an equal response to murder, because death row inmates must spend years waiting and knowing that they are going to die. It is suggested this is a torture exceeding that which the convicted gave his or her victims. I think this is the weakest argument of them, but it may have some merit. In a perfect world where a 100% guilty person was immediately put to death, with the whole thing costing less than life in prison, I could easily support that, but in our real world I'm not sure anymore that capital punishment is practical.

But I'm curious about how the people on DP feel about it. Especially to see if there are significant groups of people among those who oppose the death penalty who support the idea in theory, but not in reality and those who simply oppose the idea in principle.
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I disagree with you on numerous points.

First of all, I do believe the death penalty should be an option, but only for the most serious crimes and it should be used sparingly (and never automatically). Not all convicted murderers should be sentenced to death. Only people who pose an exceptional danger to society and are likely to offend again, or whose crime is particularly heinous, should be sentenced to death.

Your arguments against the death penalty come down to the fact that it may be wrongly applied. This goes for every law and if you're going to abolish every punishment that may be misapplied you may as well abolish the whole justice system.

As for the argument of cost, this is a fallacy. These calculations only take into account the costs of the trials and appeals. To calculate the cost of life in prisonment you have to calculate the cost of housing, feeding, guarding and caring for a person for 40 or 50 years + the costs for parole hearings and other legal procedures over that same period. There is simply no camparison. That being said, I don't consider the issue of cost a really valid argument.

Also the idea that life inprisonment is an easy and safe alternative choice is wrong, unless you're advocating locking somebody up for 40 or 50 years without any physical contact with any other person and without ever leaving their cell. This is obviously impractical as it would mean you would deny them medical care, visits or the minimum of physical exercise. But if you do treat them as prisoners should be treated there is Always the risk of escape, of them assaulting other inmates or guards, etc. And you will in fact encourage this since they have nothing to lose.
 
DVSentinel said:
What principle or practicality? Once their dead and cremated, they will never ever commit another crime or hurt another person. Only thing that needs to change is it should be something people will fear, it should be done publicly and school children should have to see it several times before becoming adults.
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Unless you kill and cremate the wrong person. Life sentences allow for a margin of error.

Ian Hislop explains Capital Punishment to an Idiot. - YouTube
 
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