War on drugs.

vesper said:

Oh that all sounds all well and good having the weed growing next to the corn and soy beans on private land and corporate farms. Of course they would have to be licenced, and most likely have a limit on the amount they could grow. But what is stopping someone who is not licensed to start his own business? California since they passed their marijuana laws have a real problem with illegal growers. Colorado is reporting the same What the government will give you for 40 bucks, the illegal grower then will offer it at a lower price after all, he doesn't have to hassle with all the rules and regulations and he has a nice clientele in students who are either to young to purchase it or can't afford it.

thanks but no thanks.

Click to expand...

Licensed and limited? that doesn't sound like legalization to me. If I decide to grow tomatoes in my back yard, no one tells me I can't, do they? I can plant corn, squash, anything I like in my garden. If I can grow my own cheaper than the commercial growers, more power to me.

We don't see illegal growers raising their own tobacco in any appreciable quantities, nor do we see them creating "plantations" in the national parks and forests, shooting at "trespassers" to protect their crop, and then leaving behind a mess of irrigation pipes and chemicals when they take their harvest and flee the scene. Were pot legal, we wouldn't see such plantations of weed, either.

vesper said:

It has been my experience that those who are willing to break one law will often break others because they have little regard for them. Some of the loudest voices in favor of decriminalizing marijuana to possession of the hard stuff, are more than willing to regulate the hell out of cigarettes (a legal substance) and treat smokers like second class citizens. Hypocrisy at its finest.

Click to expand...

How is maintaining that the government can allow you to smoke the weed that is highly addictive, slowly kills you, and endangers anyone in the vicinity, yet tell you that the weed that does none of those things and has proven medical qualities is prohibited for hypocrisy?

Come to think of it, how is calling for limited government while wanting that government to decide what we may or may not put into our bodies not hypocritical? The question is not whether smoking pot is a good idea or not, but who should decide? Liberals want the government to decide everything.

vesper said:

It has been my experience that those who are willing to break one law will often break others because they have little regard for them. Some of the loudest voices in favor of decriminalizing marijuana to possession of the hard stuff, are more than willing to regulate the hell out of cigarettes (a legal substance) and treat smokers like second class citizens. Hypocrisy at its finest.

Click to expand...

Look, I'm not really interested in your nitpicking. The data and research are what they are. All you are quoting are right-wing articles. You haven't countered much of what I've said.

vesper said:

An article coming out of the UK just 5 short months ago shows their little experiment of going "soft" on cannabis has come with a price. I'll post the link but no doubt someone will find fault with the source or the content of the article because it does not agree with their views on the matter.
The price of going soft on cannabis: Labour's experiment 'pushed up hard drug use and crime' | Mail Online

Click to expand...

The article mentions who did the study but not the name of it, so I can't look up the abstract. That's shoddy reporting. Almost every study on drug use I've seen quoted in the mass media is a distorted version of what the original study said or the study itself has a flawed methodology but it was cherry picked because of its right-wing conclusions. Don't use the media to do your research. Based on your previous comments this is your downfall because a lot of the information you're spouting is either obsolete or has been debunked.

The war on drugs is a farce. I'm not going to sit here and try to convince you. If you've decided that the punitive model is best, then there's no changing your mind. I think it's outrageous the number of people in the U.S. who are in jail for small possession. It's a victimless crime and people should not be tossed away for life over it, like in states with the three strikes rule.

There is no evidence that decriminalization of cannabis is the gateway to more crime anymore than it's the gateway to other drugs. It's a medicine and people should have the right to use it if they want. It's not hurting anyone.

The crime people commit because of cannabis is NOTHING compared to the crimes committed on alcohol. ADDRESS THAT.

Dittohead not! said:

Licensed and limited? that doesn't sound like legalization to me. If I decide to grow tomatoes in my back yard, no one tells me I can't, do they? I can plant corn, squash, anything I like in my garden. If I can grow my own cheaper than the commercial growers, more power to me.

We don't see illegal growers raising their own tobacco in any appreciable quantities, nor do we see them creating "plantations" in the national parks and forests, shooting at "trespassers" to protect their crop, and then leaving behind a mess of irrigation pipes and chemicals when they take their harvest and flee the scene. Were pot legal, we wouldn't see such plantations of weed, either.

Click to expand...

Why wouldn't pot or any other drug be treated any differently than cigarettes and alcohol? Earth to dittohead not! over?
If you think legalizing marijuana is going to stop illegal growing, not according to the states that have.
Tell that to the law enforcement in California as soon as their marijuana laws were passed. Countless number of illegal crops popped up that the law enforcement couldn't keep up with it. The stuff illegally grown there has been traced to 50 other states which may be why marijuana use is up in teens across the country. Oregon even though it was the first state to decriminalize possession of marijuana, and later passed medical marijuana had a huge hike in drug use within their state especially Portland after California to the South and Washington to the North passed their more liberal marijuana laws. And often those trafficking marijuana are found to be in possession of hard drugs as well. Colorado after passing their liberal marijuana laws are having the same problem California did of unlicensed growers illegally raising crops for market. Their neighboring states Nebraska and Kansas are so damn fed up with the sh*t being trafficked into their state that they are proposing legislation to go after Colorado for allowing the trafficking into their states over the burden of cost to keep the stuff out. So don't tell me if the damn drug was legalized and supposedly regulated by government that it would stop illegal growing. Since when did government do anything efficiently? And if they did how much more would that cost the taxpayers?

Northern Light said:

There is no evidence that decriminalization of cannabis is the gateway to more crime anymore than it's the gateway to other drugs. It's a medicine and people should have the right to use it if they want. It's not hurting anyone.

The crime people commit because of cannabis is NOTHING compared to the crimes committed on alcohol. ADDRESS THAT.

Click to expand...

Why address it? For every study you can claim that crimes committed by alcohol are far greater than cannabis users there's a study to prove that false.

Game over. See you at the polls!

Dittohead not! said:

How is maintaining that the government can allow you to smoke the weed that is highly addictive, slowly kills you, and endangers anyone in the vicinity, yet tell you that the weed that does none of those things and has proven medical qualities is prohibited for hypocrisy?

Come to think of it, how is calling for limited government while wanting that government to decide what we may or may not put into our bodies not hypocritical? The question is not whether smoking pot is a good idea or not, but who should decide? Liberals want the government to decide everything.

Click to expand...

For every study that claims all the adverse affects of cigarettes there is another study that disclaims them. There is medical research claiming that they actually have some medical benefits. But that didn't stop the left side of the aisle and self righteous moral voters from putting cigarette smokers right up their with child abusers while raping them of their money in excessive taxes. Liberals in general have a real problem with double standards. They want one set of standards for themselves to live by and another they expect everyone else to follow. Hypocrite who art thou......

For every study you can produce that marijuana does not have any adverse health affects and is not addictive, I can produce a study that says differently.
Either you treat marijuana the same as cigarettes or you are a friggen hypocrite.

War on weed. War on drugs. War on terror. War on anybody. It is just the support agencies for the very profitable militarization of our police forces. Tasers, lasers, pepper spray, 9mms, crowd control shotguns, flak jackets, Kevlar, pretty costumes, belts bangles and all as bright as the family jewels. It's capitalism run rampant inside our borders. Same Corporations making the money. Good media to promote wars on everything. Very profitable. It hasn't done diddly as per controlling drugs.

vesper said:

For every study that claims all the adverse affects of cigarettes there is another study that disclaims them. There is medical research claiming that they actually have some medical benefits. But that didn't stop the left side of the aisle and self righteous moral voters from putting cigarette smokers right up their with child abusers while raping them of their money in excessive taxes. Liberals in general have a real problem with double standards. They want one set of standards for themselves to live by and another they expect everyone else to follow. Hypocrite who art thou......

For every study you can produce that marijuana does not have any adverse health affects and is not addictive, I can produce a study that says differently.
Either you treat marijuana the same as cigarettes or you are a friggen hypocrite.

Click to expand...

Your tit for tat claim is irrelevant. We all know cigarettes are harmful. You can't call someone a hypocrite for looking at the wealth of data and drawing a true conclusion from it, especially with the way societal trends are going. Not all evidence is quid pro quo. All the research being done on psychedelics and cannabis shows that it is not only harmless to the long-term health of human brains, it has actual benefit. See maps.org for more information.

Seems like you're in la la denial land all because you still read the latest propaganda. I don't doubt for one second that you have failed to look at the actual science being discovered on the medicinal uses of many schedule 1 substances.

I'd like to see everything decriminalized, but opiates and cocaine are negotiable. Psychedelics and cannabis absolutely should not be blacklisted and the penalties for them need to be re-assessed.

You still haven't justified why you think the punitive model is better than the decriminalization and harm reduction model. Can you please explain why you think putting someone in jail, destroying their families, raiding their homes, intruding in their privacy, and costing the tax payers billions of dollars, all for a victimless crime is BETTER than just accepting that people will do what they do and we should could save a lot more lives and money with the HR model? Your "just because" reasoning falls short. You are entitled to believe whatever you want and exercise it at the polls, but don't act like the punitive model is based in real science or anything close to reality that actually works!

Northern Light said:

Your tit for tat claim is irrelevant. We all know cigarettes are harmful. You can't call someone a hypocrite for looking at the wealth of data and drawing a true conclusion from it, especially with the way societal trends are going. Not all evidence is quid pro quo. All the research being done on psychedelics and cannabis shows that it is not only harmless to the long-term health of human brains, it has actual benefit. See maps.org for more information.

Click to expand...

My tit for tat is very relevant. Yes we all can agree there are ample studies that prove smoking to be a harmful habit. Just because maps.org claims cannabis to be harmless, a plethora of studies conducted in the medical field from all over the world say otherwise. Are they all wrong? And yes I will claim someone a hypocrite when they are willing to treat a cigarette smoker one way and a pothead by different standards as the left side of the aisle are doing. If apartment complexes can put stipulations for no smoking by gawd those same stipulations best be applied to the pot smoker. If it is considered child abuse to smoke a cigarette around your child those same places with such laws best be enforcing the same on pot smokers. If it is illegal to light up a cigarette within 20 feet of a business, then by golly it needs to apply to the one puffing on a reefer. Potheads in states where recreational use is permitted are about to open up reefer bars. If they can smoke a substance in a public place then all those laws denying even a designated area for cigarette smoking in public places needs to be addressed. It's clearly hypocritical because some of the same irritants in cigarettes can be found in a reefer.

Seems like you're in la la denial land all because you still read the latest propaganda. I don't doubt for one second that you have failed to look at the actual science being discovered on the medicinal uses of many schedule 1 substances.

Click to expand...

I've spent a fair amount of time seeking out information on the subject, probably more than most. And have concluded there needs to be more studies done on marijuana before making claims it is harmless. There are too many conflicting studies.

I'd like to see everything decriminalized, but opiates and cocaine are negotiable. Psychedelics and cannabis absolutely should not be blacklisted and the penalties for them need to be re-assessed.

Click to expand...

You are certainly entitled to your opinion as am I.

You still haven't justified why you think the punitive model is better than the decriminalization and harm reduction model. Can you please explain why you think putting someone in jail, destroying their families, raiding their homes, intruding in their privacy, and costing the tax payers billions of dollars, all for a victimless crime is BETTER than just accepting that people will do what they do and we should could save a lot more lives and money with the HR model? Your "just because" reasoning falls short. You are entitled to believe whatever you want and exercise it at the polls, but don't act like the punitive model is based in real science or anything close to reality that actually works!

Click to expand...

I have a question or two for you. Why is it more and more treatment centers are popping up to address marijuana addiction if it isn't addicting as many claim? Why is it that someone will risk getting arrested to score a bag of weed? Is it because of the psychological and or physical addiction that drives them to do so?
Obviously the war on drugs hasn't been effective and that is mainly due to the number of people living in our society that are willing to make the cartels rich with their return business. And in the meantime the cartels which all the users are making wealthy are targeting our youth with drugs that will insure them a booming business in the very near future. I'm certainly not convinced legalization is going to stop it. But in my gut I feel this is a war we as a nation can't afford to loose.

Oftencold said:

Have I said that heavy marijuana use contributes significantly to violent crime. No. I have correctly pointed out that it contributes to human parasitism and a diminished mental capacity in the population so self-afflicted, and that mental deficiency is inimical to a republican form of government. (if is however, vital and indispensable to the Modern Left for such period and the trappings of a republican form of government endure.)

Click to expand...

Oh okay, so you agree alcohol causes more violent crime. Good. Do you have any credible sources backing up your claims that marijuana contributes to "parasitism" and "a diminished mental capacity"?
I have a source suggesting you're wrong, and challenging studies you might point to.
Does Marijuana Make You Stupid? - Wired Science
Also, since you would like to see marijuana continue to be illegal, I have to ask, do you want alcohol to be illegal aswell since we both agree it causes more crime, and more violent crime at that? Also, what about cigarettes? You know, that legal drug that actually kills people. Should cigs be illegal also? Even if you are correct that marijuana causes laziness, and makes people slow mentally. Is that worse than cigarettes which cause more than 5 million fatalities annually? Or to put it into different terms, 1 out 5 people who die annually die from smoking. Is that okay with you?

sbrettt said:

Oh okay, so you agree alcohol causes more violent crime. Good. Do you have any credible sources backing up your claims that marijuana contributes to "parasitism" and "a diminished mental capacity"?
I have a source suggesting you're wrong, and challenging studies you might point to.
Does Marijuana Make You Stupid? - Wired Science
Also, since you would like to see marijuana continue to be illegal, I have to ask, do you want alcohol to be illegal aswell since we both agree it causes more crime, and more violent crime at that? Also, what about cigarettes? You know, that legal drug that actually kills people. Should cigs be illegal also? Even if you are correct that marijuana causes laziness, and makes people slow mentally. Is that worse than cigarettes which cause more than 5 million fatalities annually? Or to put it into different terms, 1 out 5 people who die annually die from smoking. Is that okay with you?

Click to expand...

I want the people who vote, which is after all under the pretty veneer, a decision about who shall be forced at gunpoint to act against their will, to not be any more mentally impaired than necessary, and I do not want to see the Productives required to support the
parasitical classes. I see no need to allow further excuses for citizens to be idiots and parasites.

Now, I will compromise and favor legalization of all manner of recreational drugs so long as the users are barred from voting, and public funds forbidden to be spent upon treatment for their indulgences.

vesper said:

Why wouldn't pot or any other drug be treated any differently than cigarettes and alcohol? Earth to dittohead not! over?
If you think legalizing marijuana is going to stop illegal growing, not according to the states that have.
Tell that to the law enforcement in California as soon as their marijuana laws were passed. Countless number of illegal crops popped up that the law enforcement couldn't keep up with it. The stuff illegally grown there has been traced to 50 other states which may be why marijuana use is up in teens across the country. Oregon even though it was the first state to decriminalize possession of marijuana, and later passed medical marijuana had a huge hike in drug use within their state especially Portland after California to the South and Washington to the North passed their more liberal marijuana laws. And often those trafficking marijuana are found to be in possession of hard drugs as well. Colorado after passing their liberal marijuana laws are having the same problem California did of unlicensed growers illegally raising crops for market. Their neighboring states Nebraska and Kansas are so damn fed up with the sh*t being trafficked into their state that they are proposing legislation to go after Colorado for allowing the trafficking into their states over the burden of cost to keep the stuff out. So don't tell me if the damn drug was legalized and supposedly regulated by government that it would stop illegal growing. Since when did government do anything efficiently? And if they did how much more would that cost the taxpayers?

Click to expand...

That's because there isn't any real legalization. some states have made it legal to have a little pot and smoke it, but nowhere is it legal to openly plow a field and plant it with as much pot as you think you can sell, then openly harvest and wholesale it.

you know, the way they do tobacco.

You don't see people getting shot trying to steal tobacco out of the fields, do you?

Dittohead not! said:

That's because there isn't any real legalization. some states have made it legal to have a little pot and smoke it, but nowhere is it legal to openly plow a field and plant it with as much pot as you think you can sell, then openly harvest and wholesale it.

you know, the way they do tobacco.

You don't see people getting shot trying to steal tobacco out of the fields, do you?

Click to expand...

Dittohead not! there has been legalization within certain states to certain degrees. And these new liberalization of laws from one state to another are causing adverse affects on their neighboring states and beyond because of drug trafficking. Yes it is illegal to openly plow a field and plant weed but that is exactly what is happening in those states that have passed medical marijuana laws and or recreational use. There is a real problem in several states where these illegal crops are being grown in our state parks. These illegal growers use d-con to keep the forest rats out of their crop. It's been reported that it is causing pollution in water supplies and killing wildlife. What about the weed they are selling on the street? Here's a visual for you. A hippie talkin his/her peace, love, organic, one with nature jive while puffing on a reefer full of carcinogens from d-con. Unfortunately there are folks who come upon these fields of marijuana and are getting shot at . It's a real problem in California. Usually our National Guard aid states in weeding out (no pun intended) these fields but the Obama administration insisted on major cuts to defense. While I believe the defense budget has become overbloated, the National Guard should not have been one to experience such massive cuts. (for another time) And leaving state and local law enforcement not enough resources to tackle the problem.

Look it is pretty obvious that I have a very limited understanding about drugs because they are not a part of my life. But I do know first hand the devastation they cause not just to the addicted one but to his/her family. It's heartbreaking. Do I think people should be thrown in prison for using drugs? No. They aren't going to find the help they need behind bars. But the pushers? Throw the f-ing book at them. As far as legalizing marijuana for medical purposes, if the research is there that truly proves it benefits those who are suffering then it's time to put a fire under the butts at the FDA and get it approved so that those with a legitimate prescription can pick it up at their local pharmacy. That would shut down the dispensaries that Feds are proving sting after sting are means for folks to buy the weed at a discounted price and then traffic it to another state where they can sell it for a substantial profit. I'm convinced the whole medical marijuana issue is a scam to further the legalization of marijuana and using sick people to do it. When you tell a lie to someone on the right it angers them, when you tell the truth to someone on the left it pisses them off.

vesper said:

Dittohead not! there has been legalization within certain states to certain degrees. And these new liberalization of laws from one state to another are causing adverse affects on their neighboring states and beyond because of drug trafficking.

Click to expand...

But the problems stem not from the liberalization, but the fact that weed is still a schedule 1 "narcotic" according to the feds. Nowhere is pot being grown legally and sold on a free market, and everywhere federal law supersedes state law.

vesper said:

Yes it is illegal to openly plow a field and plant weed but that is exactly what is happening in those states that have passed medical marijuana laws and or recreational use. There is a real problem in several states where these illegal crops are being grown in our state parks. These illegal growers use d-con to keep the forest rats out of their crop. It's been reported that it is causing pollution in water supplies and killing wildlife.

Click to expand...

Exactly. California is one of those states. Now, if pot were being grown legally on private land, those national park plantations would no longer be profitable.

vesper said:

What about the weed they are selling on the street? Here's a visual for you. A hippie talkin his/her peace, love, organic, one with nature jive while puffing on a reefer full of carcinogens from d-con.

Click to expand...

That is quite a visual, no doubt.
and it is the problem with any illegal drugs: Who knows what might actually be in them?

vesper said:

Unfortunately there are folks who come upon these fields of marijuana and are getting shot at . It's a real problem in California. Usually our National Guard aid states in weeding out (no pun intended) these fields but the Obama administration insisted on major cuts to defense.

Click to expand...

yes, and volunteer groups are cleaning them up as well. Wouldn't it be a good thing if those plantations were no longer profitable?

vesper said:

While I believe the defense budget has become overbloated, the National Guard should not have been one to experience such massive cuts. (for another time) And leaving state and local law enforcement not enough resources to tackle the problem.

Look it is pretty obvious that I have a very limited understanding about drugs because they are not a part of my life.

Click to expand...

They are not a part of my life either. I've never even smoked weed and not inhaled, like one of our past presidents. I do know, however, that having the biggest prison population in the world while letting car thieves walk for lack of room in jail is not a good thing, nor is the growing of pot on public land you just described.

vesper said:

But I do know first hand the devastation they cause not just to the addicted one but to his/her family. It's heartbreaking. Do I think people should be thrown in prison for using drugs? No. They aren't going to find the help they need behind bars. But the pushers? Throw the f-ing book at them.

Click to expand...

The trouble with that is it doesn't work. All it does is overcrowd prisons with drug dealers.

vesper said:

As far as legalizing marijuana for medical purposes, if the research is there that truly proves it benefits those who are suffering then it's time to put a fire under the butts at the FDA and get it approved so that those with a legitimate prescription can pick it up at their local pharmacy. That would shut down the dispensaries that Feds are proving sting after sting are means for folks to buy the weed at a discounted price and then traffic it to another state where they can sell it for a substantial profit. I'm convinced the whole medical marijuana issue is a scam to further the legalization of marijuana and using sick people to do it. When you tell a lie to someone on the right it angers them, when you tell the truth to someone on the left it pisses them off.

Click to expand...

The medical marijuana thing just might be what you think it is. The making of marijuana a schedule 1 narcotic, more dangerous than cocaine, is lying as well. The bottom line is this: Who gets to decide? Why should big daddy government decide what is and is not legal substance? Are the people not able to make up their own minds, and in need of someone to protect them from themselves?

The other issue is: The war on drugs is not working. There is more drug abuse now than ever.

Oftencold said:

I want the people who vote, which is after all under the pretty veneer, a decision about who shall be forced at gunpoint to act against their will, to not be any more mentally impaired than necessary, and I do not want to see the Productives required to support the
parasitical classes. I see no need to allow further excuses for citizens to be idiots and parasites.

Now, I will compromise and favor legalization of all manner of recreational drugs so long as the users are barred from voting, and public funds forbidden to be spent upon treatment for their indulgences.

Click to expand...

You have failed to address a single point I made. I'm finding it difficult to take your view seriously.

Marijuana has been scientifically shown to open airways, and has a calming effect on people (which could aid people with bipolar, schizophrenia etc. etc.) smoking any plant has negative effects but taking marijuana in a vapor or through consumption is actually beneficial. Quick history lesson, smoking pot was used as a common medicinal practice and was only banned when foreigners used it for other reasons. Marijuana is a harmless and beneficial medicine and stress reliever. Enough with this phony "War on Drugs" LEGALIZE MARIJUANA.